Joe O'Toole (Independent)

Mr. O'Brien has been critical but has attempted to find balance, and we need more of that. While I do not mind people with whom I disagree offering their point of view, we need to be careful. Someone mentioned "Tonight with Vincent Browne". I watched that programme last Wednesday night when one of the experts said that if the Government had to put money into AIB the following morning, and by that stage we all knew it would, then we were in worse trouble then ever before and the yield on our bonds would rise. Someone, I think it was Mr. Vincent Browne, suggested perhaps in that case we should not go into the bond markets for the next few months, to which the reply was were we to do that, the yield would go through the roof. It was interesting, because one very rarely catches out economists, that precisely the circumstances he outlined occurred in the following 24 hours but the reverse of what he expected took place in that our coupon rate fell instead of rose. We should recognise that, because these people are putting themselves forward as experts in this regard.

An important point about the positives and the importance of exports was raised by Senator Mooney. This is a point I did not see on any front page. This country exported more in August of this year. I think the figure was €40 billion. It was the largest level of exports ever in the history of this State. It is important to recognise that. With all of the bad news, that is good news.

It is also important to look at employment. Our employment rate has now gone up to 86.4%. Being an optimist, I always prefer to look at the number in employment as opposed to the number in unemployment. Therefore, 86.4% of the workforce go out to work every day. As well as that, there are many pensioners who are comfortable and who get their pension every month or every fortnight.

In the middle of all of this, there is a substantial level of saving, as was mentioned by a number of Senators. We must unlock those savings but we cannot do so unless people have certainty. Ordinary people are the same as companies or entrepreneurs in that they need an element of certainty. If, for example, a Minister says the Government will cut back pensions and salaries, a couple thinking of going away to Cavan for a weekend, putting in new windows or extending their house will change their mind, ask whether they can afford it and decide they had better wait and see. The Government worsens the situation. One must create an optimistic certainty among people. This is not foolish optimism but a certainty of knowing their income will be maintained. One of the values of the Croke Park agreement is that it should commit public sector workers to spending their money rather than saving it for the rainy day because it will not come in the next two to three years.

I rarely quote ISME reports with any sense of confidence but I nearly swallowed my egg last week when I heard ISME state that the position between banks and the small and medium-sized enterprises had improved. It was the first positive note I had ever heard from Mr. Mark Fielding. He normally depresses me. There are pieces of good news.

It is important to recognise that the disaster with Allied Irish Banks was not caused by anything going bad in the economy. To make assurance doubly sure and for belt and braces, the Financial Regulator has insisted the amount of money the bank needs in assets should be raised from €7.5 billion to €10 billion. That is the reason AIB has had to get the extra funding. It is not that the prognosis has got worse. There are issues in that regard we need to examine.

We also need to look at an ongoing major debate on whether pension funds - not just our own but also private pension funds of pension companies - should be allowed invest in our bonds. I hope the Minister of State responds to this. Many pension funds are invested abroad at 2% or 3% at a time when they could be invested in Irish bonds at 4% or 5%, but they can only do that with a change in legislation and I would ask the Minister to do that.

The points made by the voluntary and community pillar in recent days are worth looking at. They were positive, optimistic and certain about what they could do and I agree with them.

The tax take needs to be increased. If I were to find fault with the Government, it would be on that issue. The tax take is far too low.

I again thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to participate in the debate.