Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

That is why one must consider the Bill from here on in its totality. We pay out €4.3 billion in unemployment payments. Effectively, we put it to the people concerned that they can have the payment, but they must be available for work. However, if they do work, they lose it. That is what we say to them in simple English. We spend approximately €500 million on community employment and rural social schemes and community service programmes. We intend to transfer the €500 million to the same Department which administers the sum of €4.3 billion. The purpose is when such schemes are within the remit of one Department, it is a good deal easier to transfer between subheads. We are keen to pay more people to do something because this is what they wish to do also and pay fewer to do nothing because that is what those who are genuinely unemployed do not wish to do.

Having people participating in schemes is considerably more expensive than having them on the dole. There is a cost to placing them on schemes. However, there is a great societal gain to be made if they are working in providing care for the elderly or the young, in after school services or environmental works. However, there is a cost in my Department's budget. The rural social scheme is a good deal more expensive because of the training element of community employment schemes. Some of the difference in the cost could be met by separating the wheat from the chaff. The wheat represents those who are unemployed and genuinely seeking and capable of work. We should place them on schemes. The chaff represents those who draw unemployment payments, but when they are called up, they suddenly disappear off the live register. The savings could be used for the purposes of engaging in activation. That is where we wish to go and if we can move in this direction, we can secure a double gain.

We deal with something all Senators have discussed with me time and again, that is, fraud and people claiming who are not entitled to do so. We aim to use the benefits of any savings to help directly those who are genuinely unemployed and knocking on our doors each day seeking placement on a community employment scheme, rural social scheme, community service employment scheme or something to do because they are going out of their minds. We have evidence to show that health is affected by unemployment.