Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)

I fully accept the spirit of what Senator McCarthy says. I have had a great deal of experience with the social welfare system and how it has developed over the years because at one stage I was effectively the employer. I was a manager of a co-operative and I learnt many of the crinkles of the social welfare system, unemployment rules, casual labour and so on. What I have seen over years for all sorts of bizarre reasons, all of which were good at the time, is how it has got ever more complex. There are 36 different rates of PRSI and I do not believe there are many in the country who fully understand that. If one holds a medical card it is this, and if one does not, it is that, and there are all sorts of odd situations. I would much prefer a simpler system.

As Senator McCarthy also will be aware, the challenge in going from where one is to where one would like to be or where one would have constructed it if one was starting with a clean sheet is that it is fraught by the fact that people do not accept one going backwards. One must improve matters, and then there are issues of funding, etc. Notwithstanding the statement of the Minister for Finance that there would be a universal social contribution, I do not believe we will get there in one jump. However, if we could progressively reduce the number of social welfare classes and the sub rates under the various classes, such as A, M, K and S classes which in turn are divided into A0, AX etc., simplify it and see how to reduce the variation in benefits under the different classes, it would represent a good day's work for the ordinary citizen. I have no notion of so doing but if I held a quiz here on the tax implications of social welfare benefits, I doubt if too many people understand that area fully either. I understand some of the large accountancy companies claim few people fully understand the tax and social welfare pay-in code in total or the classifications of the various payments one may get. I believe all of this should be simplified over time and during my time as Minister I will work in that direction. If, at any time, it is believed a debate on the issue either in this House or a joint committee were warranted, I would make myself available. If we all put our heads together and put our common experience of the crinkles in the system together, we might improve it. However, I warn the House that one must avoid unintended consequences which one many not have considered in the first place. Any changes would have to be carried out carefully. It will take some time but I am determined to move forward on this agenda in my time as Minister. I accept the spirit of the amendment if not the amendment itself. We should all follow this agenda and I am interested in people's input to the agenda. The Senator has highlighted some rather relevant points.