Tony Killeen (Clare, Fianna Fail)

At approximately this time last year a report was published suggesting that there were approximately 850 State agencies, boards and groups of one kind or another. Three weeks ago Dr. Muiris MacCarthaigh of the IPA published a report stating that there are 240, of which 189 have boards, with memberships ranging from three to, I believe, 35, which is an average of approximately ten or 12. This means that several thousand people are board members. Anyone would accept that it would be a miracle - even Solomon would be challenged - to appoint all the members of such boards to a particular standard and for all of them to be fully engaged and doing the job well. The point Senator Ross makes now and has made previously is as much about members of boards who are somewhat disengaged or freewheeling along as about people who are seeking to subvert the integrity of the purpose of the board. In either case there are challenges. I accept that the points made by Senators on all sides of the House are made from a position of personal integrity based on the concerns they have. It is important to accept that as a starting point.

I do not suppose that either Senator Ross or Senator Donohoe were ever fortunate enough to attend a Fianna Fáil cumann meeting. However, if they did so frequently, they would hear, among other criticisms, that we seem to appoint many people to boards, who are very definitely tagged with memberships of or alignments with other political parties and traditions. Whenever that is said to me I have no difficulty in defending it if I believe that the person is suitable for the job. I believe it is probably true that all parties in government have appointed people from other political traditions when they have regarded them as suitable for particular jobs. In his Second Stage speech, Senator Ross referred to the quality of Matthew Elderfield and Professor Honohan and their suitability for the job. Given the record of the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in this regard, it is reasonable to expect and accept that he would be able to find and appoint people of that calibre. I know the Senator is making a slightly different point about being less than satisfied about the appointments to the boards of banks, which may not be germane to the current debate on the Central Bank and the regulator. However, it is a point he holds very strongly and can be argued one way or the other.

On Second Stage, Senator Donohoe raised a query about the Secretary General of the Department of Finance being on the commission. If we cast our minds back to some of the points made by Professor Honohan and Messrs. Regling and Watson, one of the concerns would be that the policies being followed by the Department of Finance would be informed by what was known at Central Bank level and at regulator level. There is a strong argument for including the Secretary General in those circumstances. In general terms the Minister has an established track record in finding people of particular quality, which is challenging because there is not an enormous pool of people who are completely divorced from the activities of recent years and the difficulties into which we have got ourselves. On balance in our type of democracy with an Executive that is answerable to the Parliament and the committees thereof in a very immediate way, it is reasonable to accept that the Minister will come up with good quality people and, as Senator Ross said, even if he did not, there would be an opportunity to make that point very strongly. On the basis of previous experience, I am confident he would be in a position to do so.

There are other points on, for example, the independence of the Governor on the budget of the institution. Given the many safeguards that are in place, I would be very confident that the new Central Bank and regulatory system will be capable of standing much more independently and clearly and will set out the terms of regulation much more strongly than has been the case in the past, which led to many difficulties.