Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)

I cannot put it any other way other than reiterating the point that it was always envisaged, when the Oireachtas was passing legislation, that a judge had discretion as to the maximum fine to impose. We are putting into law a much more definite regulation, in effect, and obligation on a court to determine the personal financial circumstances of people before it. I accept the point made by Senator Bacik but, to a certain extent, what she has suggested does not happen. A judge will not purposely impose a fine on a person because he or she regards them as more financially able to pay a fine. A fine would not be based on financial circumstances.

This is geared to answer Senator Walsh's query about how the judgment is determined. It is determined on the basis of section 13, which states: "The purpose of this section is to ensure as far as practicable that, where a court imposes a fine on a person, the effect of the fine on that person or his or her dependants is not significantly abated or made more severe by reason of his or her financial circumstances." The judge would have to hear evidence on the amount of the person's annual income, the average value of property, real and personal, and the average amount of liabilities. We had discussions on that before. This is designed to deal with circumstances where, for example, three people are before the court on similar offences. The financial circumstances would be taken into account in all three cases to ensure the people were able to afford the appropriate fine as decided by the judge. The formulation we have arrived at clearly links the new subsection (3) to the purpose of this section. Subsection (2) states "Where a person of full age is convicted of an offence, the court shall, in determining the amount of the fine (if any) to impose in respect of the offence, take into account the person's financial circumstances."