Michael Finneran (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fianna Fail)

I welcome the opportunity to engage in a full debate on what the Government is doing on ministerial pensions. This is an opportunity to set out the facts and make certain the public is fully aware of what has been done to reduce spending on ministerial pensions. We are all aware that the issue has caused a great deal of public controversy in recent days, which is, to an extent, understandable. What happens in the Oireachtas, especially regarding Members' pay, pensions and expenses, must always be in the public eye. I am sure the same happens in every country with a healthy democracy. In such countries legislators will welcome such scrutiny and must be prepared to accept criticism and act on it where it is justified.

We must accept that public scrutiny will be even more intense at a time of serious economic crisis. Everyone in our community has been hugely affected by the crisis, especially those experiencing the problems caused by high unemployment. As a result, the public reasonably wants an assurance that the measures being taken to deal with Ireland's economic and budgetary crisis are fairly distributed and, in particular, that Members of the Oireachtas are not asking others to carry burdens they are not prepared to carry themselves. I am happy to provide that assurance for the public in this debate. Nonetheless, I hope we can agree it is essential that the debate will concentrate on the facts and will be carried on in a calm and rational manner. Important issues of public interest must be fully and properly debated in the Houses and we must take decisions in the light of that debate. If that means we cannot take knee-jerk decisions to appease a few commentators, so be it.

The Government makes no apology for refusing to allow policy to be decided solely by reference to what might or might not play well on the evening television news or in the morning newspapers. If we were to go further down the route mapped out for us by some of those who have been exercised recently about ministerial pensions, there is no doubt that the quality of Irish public life would be seriously undermined in the longer run. I am concerned about the nature and tone of some of the public debate on the issue in recent days. Many of the comments have been objectionable and many of the commentators have taken no account of the substantial measures the Government has introduced. Even more importantly, individuals have been singled out publicly and pursued until they have made what is considered to be the "right" statement about their ministerial pensions. That is a new development in Irish public life and I am not comfortable with it. By all means, we should have a full and open debate about the issues of the day, but I cannot stand back and agree that people who have previously served in government in the public interest can be harried until they are coerced into giving up income to which they have a clear legal right and which has already been reduced. We must be cautious about a public discussion that names particular individuals whose private circumstances are unknown and which moves on to make demands about what they should or should not do with their income. That is not a route we as a community can or should go down.

It is particularly disturbing that the recent debate has taken no account of the major steps the Government has taken on pay, administrative costs and pensions. The Government has led by example. We have taken a strong and clear line in reducing the cost of running our administrative and parliamentary system. As part of these measures, the Government has taken major steps to reduce public service pay costs which have significantly reduced spending on pay and related costs for all public servants and Members of the Oireachtas and Ministers. Ministers and Ministers of State voluntarily surrendered 10% of their pay from November 2008. Senators will be aware that in February 2009 the Government introduced a pension-related deduction for all public servants - the pension levy - which aimed to reduce the public service pay bill by an estimated €1 billion in a single year.

In 2009 the Government decided to restructure the way it operated by reducing the number of Ministers of State from 20 to 15. The reduction in the number of Ministers of State has also led to a reduction in the cost of running ministerial offices.

In budget 2010 the Minister for Finance announced the Government's decision to cut public service pay, with reductions ranging from 5% for the lower paid to just under 8% in the case of salaries up to €125,000. For those paid above this level, the Government decided, in line with the recommendations of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector, on reductions of 8% for those with salaries from €125,000 to €165,000; 12% for those earning between €165,000 and €200,000, and 15% for those earning €200,000 or more. The Minister made it clear that these were permanent reductions which would be reflected in future pension entitlements.

The salary of the Taoiseach was reduced by 20% which meant that, when account was taken of the pension levy, the Taoiseach's salary was cut by close to 30% in total. Ministers and Secretaries General of Departments all took a pay cut of 15% which produced an overall cut of close to 25% when account was taken of the pension levy. By any standard, these are significant measures which have taken us a long way towards dealing with the budgetary problems we face. They have made it clear internationally that the Government will act immediately and decisively to secure the economic future of the country.

Turning to the issues raised in this debate, it is a fact that the Government has changed the terms and conditions of ministerial pensions. In 2009 the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) and Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices Act was introduced. It provided that ministerial pensions paid to Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament would be reduced by 25%. Even more importantly, it also provides that such pensions will not be paid to sitting Members after the next general election or elections to the European Parliament.

In considering the legislation the Government looked at the possibility of ending the payment of pensions to sitting Members of the Oireachtas with immediate effect, the measure the Opposition wishes us to endorse this evening. However, the Government decided not to take this course of action following advice from the Attorney General whose clear advice was that pensions were earned but deferred income to which the person concerned had a property right. In addition, he advised that legislation to end pension payments completely for a particular group of people who had clear rights to the pension payments would be discriminatory and give rise to serious legal and constitutional issues. As the Minister for Finance said yesterday, this could amount to disproportionate discrimination.

The Government did take action, however, to reduce spending on ministerial pensions for sitting Members. It took steps within the law and the Constitution. Although these pensions could not be removed, the Attorney General said they could be reduced in a proportionate way after consultation with the relevant Members. The Minister for Finance consulted the pension holders and, in the light of this, proposed legislation to reduce the pensions of sitting Members by 25%, a measure which was approved by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Minister also proposed in the legislation to stop payment of these pensions to sitting ex-Ministers with effect from the next Dáil. Those concerned will have had an opportunity to assess the new position for themselves and make a decision in the light of their personal circumstances about any alternative pension arrangements they may wish to make.

In short, a reasonable but robust policy on ministerial pensions has been given effect by the Government. It is an approach which reduces costs to the taxpayer at the expense of ex-Ministers and takes account of the serious legal constraints which apply in this area. We must also remember that a considerable number of ex-Ministers have already gifted or intend to gift their pensions to the Exchequer. I express the Government's gratitude for these significant and generous contributions. It is also important to remind the House and the public that these gifts were being made privately before the recent controversy began.

The Government makes no apology for what it has done in this area. It also makes no apology for refusing to join in a disturbing public campaign to coerce people to give up properly acquired pensions. When the record is looked at fairly, it shows clearly that we have moved to deal with the economic and budgetary crisis, reduced the cost of running the Government and the Oireachtas and taken entirely reasonable and proportionate measures to reduce very significantly ministerial pensions paid to sitting Members. There is no need for the legislation proposed in the Opposition's motion. I commend the Government's amendment to the House.