Rónán Mullen (Independent)

I speak as someone who entered the Oireachtas at a time when considerable reforms had already been introduced in regard to pensions payable to former Members on leaving office. I never knew about nor inquired into the pension entitlements that would accrue to me in the event that I ceased to be a Senator. I will receive some sort of pension at the normal retirement age rather than any earlier. I do not, therefore, have a vested interest.

I will stress two ideas, between which there is some tension. The first is that there should be reasonable and good remuneration for Deputies and Senators and, by extension, Ministers to attract people of calibre to politics. We are all familiar with the old saying, "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". Some critics of these Houses might say we pay considerably more than peanuts and still end up with some simian quadrupeds, but I am not sure that would be fair. However, it is debatable whether good remuneration should extend to the right of people to be paid a pension before leaving office as an ordinary Member of the Oireachtas.

The second issue - or bundle of issues - is the need to show solidarity and lead by example in the current difficult times. It is well known that people have been asked to make major sacrifices to put the country back on track. Those in the public service, in particular, have been asked to endure extra pain. It is, therefore, easy to understand why and undeniable that politicians' salaries and pensions have become such a neuralgic issue. Politicians are viewed in many cases as having contributed to the woes people are experiencing. That is due in part to the functioning of the media. The quest for accountability and necessary scepticism shown to all institutions and, in particular, people involved politics has on occasion spilled over into unhelpful cynicism. If we are honest, we should say there is a selfishness in our culture at this time. People endure no pain themselves but seek to scapegoat others and politicians are an easy target. The crisis is partly of our own making but has also been created partly by our culture, in which people are willing and anxious to play the blame game. Fine Gael's proposal must be accepted, on the basis that we have arrived at this point. However, I support much of what Senator Norris said, particularly on the way in which politicians have lost the opportunity to establish and regulate clear structures for fairness in media coverage of such issues. We have ended up considering the issues in a partial way and being led by the nose as a political class instead of leading ourselves.

Senator Cummins raised a valid point when he asked about the need to explain the logic that we could cut 25% from the pensions of former Ministers but not go further. We have never heard a proper explanation of why we could not have gone further.

It is legitimate, if we are talking about ministerial salaries and pensions, that we open up the debate to include others with public service pensions who are now earning in other areas, whether in the private or public sector. I asked some months ago if we should think about whether anyone in banking, politics or the media - or anyone whose salary was in any way supported by the public purse - should be allowed to earn more than €150,000 a year. If we are in such a serious crisis, perhaps we need to ask such drastic questions.

Fine Gael's proposal will be welcomed by many people because they cannot understand why a former Minister would attract a pension while continuing to earn a salary as a public representative. That is a legitimate question. However, if we criticise people for enjoying these privileges, we should have the generosity to praise and acknowledge those who took steps of their own volition to forgo part of their entitlement. I say this as someone who has no vested interest.

We need to widen the debate and re-establish a space in public discourse-----