Lisa McDonald (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister. The legislation is reforming and has many welcome aspects. It provides for an overhaul that has been needed for years. It is an effort by the State to set up an equitable system of fine recovery.

The updating and indexing of fines imposed by the District Court and, to a limited extent, some of the higher courts, is welcome. Many of the fines have not been updated for years and therefore do not serve as an adequate deterrent or penalty. The law can fall into disrepute or become an ass if a ridiculous fine is imposed that is not a deterrent at all. An example cited in this regard, namely that of a mother who was found drunk in charge of a three year old in 2001, points to a fine that has long needed to be increased.

The Bill, in Part 3, deals with the payment and recovery of fines. Section 13 empowers the court to consider the capacity of the debtor to pay. This has been allowed in civil arrangements but this Bill allows for far smoother steps to be taken. One step moves to the next very smoothly and they are outlined clearly in the legislation. In this way, the legislation is very good. The court can either be given a statement of means or consider the capacity of the debtor to pay. It can order a statement of means. If it feels it needs to consider the financial hardship of a debtor, it can do so. If an instalment order is needed, it can be given. If a fine remains unpaid, the order for recovery can be applied the day after it is due.

The procedure we are providing for is far smoother than the one in civil arrangements whereby one must keep going back to court for various orders. In this regard, the legislation is far-reaching and could ameliorate circumstances in other areas, if copied. It means the time taken up in the courts will be decreased.

The Bill provides for community service as a step in addressing default on payment of a fine. For those people who refuse to pay, whom I know exist from having spoken to people who say they would rather go to jail than pay for a fine, a prison sentence can be imposed. Sometimes people feel they cannot pay for political reasons. That various punitive steps are provided for is very important.

The concept of naming and shaming, as in Stubbs Gazette in the business sector, is very welcome because people do not like their neighbours to know they have not paid their debts. In this way, the legislation will be of assistance. The Bill gives teeth in an area where, until now, people were simply put in jail for not paying their State-imposed fines and it is definitely welcome.

Let me refer to gardaí and fines for drink driving and speeding offences. If, on the last day before which a fine is due, the 56th day, a fine is not paid, the relevant file is immediately removed from the garda's desk and entered into the court system. If the debtor has forgotten to pay the fine, he or she must face court. I accept the penalty must be higher for those who have simply forgotten to pay fines or who cannot do so to the Garda but their cases should not go to court. I refer to good, generally law-abiding people who may have been caught using a mobile telephone while driving or caught speeding. I accept completely that these are serious offences but believe the Garda should have the capacity not to enter the cases into the court system. The system needs to be put in place in respect of Garda fines.

Somebody told me some days ago that he went to the Garda station to pay a fine but could not do so by instalment. There is no way of taking financial hardship into account in respect of Garda-imposed fines. We need to put the system provided for into place in respect of the Garda law-enforcement system. It is ludicrous that people who are seeking to pay money to the State cannot do so. Instead, they must wait for six to eight months until their case goes to court, which causes embarrassment. This is absolutely ludicrous in this day and age and I believe the Minister will accept that. This is fine legislation but it needs to be applied right across the system for the recovery of State fines. It should apply not only to court-imposed fines but also to on-the-spot fines imposed by gardaí.

I welcome the equality-of-impact aspect of the legislation. It provides a holistic way of dealing with fine payment. It is a truism that 2,000 people are sent to prison each year for failing to pay debts. Prison does not rehabilitate them in any way. Many are imprisoned not because they refused to pay but because they could not pay. There is no point in our jumping up and down saying everyone in prison cannot pay because some are imprisoned for refusing to pay. A fellow said to me some days ago that he would do jail rather than pay a fine. Let us be realistic about this. In this legislation, imprisonment is the very last step that can be taken. The Minister has dealt with it in a very measured way and ought to be complimented on it.

The busy nature of the District Court needs to be referred to. As a legal practitioner, I have an interest in this matter. There are cases in respect of which money could be collected, for example, cases in respect of enforcement of planning permission. These cases are taking nearly three or four years to be taken in certain parts of the country. In the civil debt collection area, contested cases are taking two to three years. The District Court is seriously busy and the problems that arise present an added burden of work.

The holistic approach we are to take, which involves the equality-of-impact arrangement, will ensure the law is fair and will have the same impact on all citizens. A well-off person can simply pay an imposed fine whereas a poorer person will not be able to do so. In the latter case, the instalment order will kick in and the assessment of the person's capacity to pay will be taken into account by the court. That is to be welcomed. In taking capacity to pay into account, the District Court judge must be assured he is doing so in an equitable and reasonable way. That will take time. District Courts, which are bursting at the seams throughout the country, face an increased burden and this needs to be addressed. I have said on numerous occasions in the House that there is a very simple answer, namely, the provision of separate family law courts which would deal with family law and domestic violence.