David Norris (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State. Senator MacSharry referred to the words of the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in the other House and I would like to do the same. The Minister said that "At every hand's turn our worst fears have been surpassed". That is a very stark statement. He went on to say "Some institutions were worst than others, but the fact is that our banking system to a greater or lesser extent engaged in reckless property development lending". How true is that. A Member on this side of the House referred to a few bankers. It was not a few bankers who were responsible but the entire financial elite and not only in this country. This was a global infection. Although we are tinkering with the system, and with NAMA we are basically still only tinkering with it, it is tragic that we are not addressing the system completely. We are not addressing it radically or fundamentally.

Senator MacSharry spoke about international regulation, of which I am all in favour. There is another aspect I have raised repeatedly but I have not been listened to and that is partly due to the intellectual laziness of the media who will not take up challenging ideas no matter how often they are made in this House. Among the elements that I regard as criminally responsible is not only the regulatory system but the ratings system. How often have I had to say why does nobody challenge Standard & Poor's, Fitch or Moody's, the people who validated the toxic bundles, the mortgages in the United States, that proved to be fatal to the entire system and that brought down the banking system there? They were allowed to continue and to rate Iceland as a triple star country a week before it collapsed and we are still allowing them to rate us. Why does somebody not address that? Why do they not establish an international, properly remunerated system of rating, independent of its reliance on corrupt profit from the people they are validating?

I wish the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan well in every sense, both in his personal health and in the financial medicine he is dosing out to this country. He is a man of courage and integrity. He said:

The doubters had been provided wrong. NAMA has carried out its valuations in a hard-headed commercial manner.

It applied the valuations that certain Members of this House said it needed to apply. We were right and the record will show that.

However, I still believe it would have been possible to wind up Anglo Irish Bank. The Minister referred to the costs involved. The costs involved, as I understand them, would not have been in any sense substantially greater than the costs in which we are already involved and we would have had a greater yield and greater profit. One of the people who has advised me on this is not Professor Brian Lucey but Mr. Peter Matthews. He has been right time and again and every figure from him that I gave has been vindicated. This is a moment when we need to unite and avail of wisdom from wherever we can avail of it. I, therefore, appeal to the Minister, as I did to the Leader on the Order of Business today, to facilitate a meeting between Mr. Matthews and certain people leading our financial institutions. I very much welcome the fact that, imaginatively or perhaps in a Machiavellian sense, the Government installed as chairman of Anglo Irish Bank Mr. Alan Dukes who has a very clear financial record. A series of meetings should be facilitated between Mr. Matthews and the people mentioned. The Minister referred to our problems. I reject what he said. The problems we face are not of our creation. Again, they are due to this small elite.

I am glad the Minister spoke about setting specific lending targets for AIB and Bank of Ireland and targeted lending of a sum of not less than €3 billion to industry. That is what I would concentrate on. I know it is wonderful that there are good articles in the Financial Times that the Celtic tiger is licking its wounded paws and so on and that confidence is important. However, we are always being preached to about market values but they do not seem to apply to the big boys. It is like that ghastly woman in America who said only the little people paid tax. Apparently, market values do not apply to the big boys. We must concentrate on the ordinary people who are a hell of a lot more important than the subordinated bondholders or senior creditors in the banks. I applaud this aspect which I hope is true.

As I said at the beginning, AIB will be nationalised. I suggested a national property management agency in January 2009, three months before the Government came up with NAMA. I said we needed a radical solution to take a clear, surgical approach and merge and nationalise the banks and operate them in the interests of the people. I still believe this and know it is radical. People speak about our reputation internationally but what reputation do we have? We have none. Therefore, we must look after the people.

As I mentioned yesterday, I am very interested in the way Bank of Ireland has been operating. It magically reduced its exposure from a sum of €16 billion to €12 billion. One must wonder why. I am certain it was to avoid nationalisation and a majority takeover. I do not believe it is honest and that it will be able to avoid it. It has told us it will be able to raise money in the international markets but let us wait and see. It told us this before but each time it lied. Why should we believe it is correct now, although perhaps it is? I am not that impressed by the fire brigade measures required of some of the banks, or that they are implementing themselves, including selling off profitable investments abroad. That gives one a boost or a once-off cash injection but then it is dead. Perhaps I am thick but would it not be a little more sensible to hold onto them, milk and maximise them in order that they would continue to yield profits? The reason the banks are doing this is that they want to avoid nationalisation.

I will support the Government in anything sensible it does. The record of the House will show that this morning I held myself aside from carping political comment because the situation was too serious. It is worse than in 1929. One of the real problems will emerge when the situation begins to spiral. If the entire mortgage market collapses and people are unable to repay their mortgages, that will kill off another source of income for the banks.

We must very careful and prudent and support the Government but I lend my greatest support to investment in productive industry, in which matter Seanad Éireann has played a role. We dealt with the Energy (Biofuel Obligations and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill a week or two ago and have potentially helped to create 1,000 jobs in Waterford. While we can do this, we need to be clear, rational and sensible and face up to the liars and crooks in the banking system.