Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)

It is strange that, in the course of this debate, the Government has accepted no blame for putting our country in this position. The people know what happened to the economy, that poor regulation, free-wheeling bankers and a few Fianna Fáil Ministers brought us to this point. Given the Cabinet sub-committee on the economy, Ministers carrying on as if this situation has nothing to do with them are disrespectful of the people paying for it.

The people will not forget how this situation came about. It does not matter how many silver-tongued Ministers and their apologists try to mislead them. Some of last night's contributions by Ministers in the Lower House showed a disregard for their role in bringing this country to its knees. I assure those Ministers that, when the opportunity presents itself, people will make them pay for shattering their dreams and destroying their children's bright futures. The people know what needs to be done, but they do not like it.

An atomic bomb was dropped on the economy during Deputy Cowen's tenure as Minister for Finance. That situation has continued during his tenure as Taoiseach. Those who claim we will come out of this in a few years know they are speaking rubbish. Populists with devastating financial policies will ruin the country for at least a decade. We only need to consider the Great Depression. It took the United States 20 years to come out of that. What Ireland is facing is much greater than anything we have faced in the years gone by. The sums are massive. Beyond the billions of euro to be given to Anglo Irish Bank and other institutions, we are borrowing €20 billion per year to pay for public services.

We are in an unbelievable economic crisis the type of which Ireland has never seen previously. The Government needs to acknowledge this fact. The vainglorious carry on of Fianna Fáil and Green Party Ministers would sicken one. I would have expected a bit more from the Green Party, as it was not involved when we were led into this crisis. However, its party conference last weekend saw no acknowledgement of a problem or the need to do something about it. All it could do was celebrate getting an extra junior Ministry. The Green Party Ministers' view of politics has become so simplistic that it is time to get rid of them.

I am annoyed by Fianna Fáil Ministers who, in trying to justifying what they have done, trip over themselves to tell us that Europe, international bankers and the IMF are supportive of their management of the economy. They are accountable to the people and they should acknowledge what they have done to the country. The Minister of State should remind his party colleagues that mocking the people in ministerial contributions on the crisis is foolish.

The economy is shrinking. Our GNP is shrinking dramatically while our national debt is increasing. The scale of the bailout is significant. The Government will put more than €8 billion into Anglo Irish Bank during the coming weeks. That is the amount we will spend on educating every person in the primary, secondary and university levels this year. At least we will get a return on their education, but we will get none from the €8.3 billion to be poured into a financial black hole. The money will be gone, finito. The €16 billion in loans to be transferred to NAMA is equivalent to the amount the HSE will spend this year on providing a health service for every man, woman and child who requires health care. Of the €16 billion to be transferred to NAMA, €7.5 billion has already been written off. The value of the remaining €8.5 billion in loans is questionable.

To try to get the general public to understand these massive figures, we should consider the figure of €75 billion. The Government will only spend approximately €59 billion this year. We should try to put the amounts involved in NAMA into context. The household mortgages of the ordinary men and women on the street, including the Minister of State and myself, are valued at approximately €120 billion. The cost of the NAMA project will probably be approximately €80 billion. It is like telling people that, for every €10,000 of their mortgages, the State will borrow €6,000 to pay for the reckless behaviour of a few bankers, sleeper regulators, a hubristic Minister for Finance and the then Taoiseach. The then Taoiseach should have made a statement in the Lower House last night instead of avoiding facing up to his responsibility for destroying this country.

People understand that they will be paying off debts in the years to come because of what occurred. We are not discussing free money. This is a debt on the people. Paying off that interest will lead to cuts in social welfare and further cuts in health and education. It is amazing to listen to the Minister for Finance being so strong in his defence of subordinate bond holders. These are international risk-taking investors. I do not see the same concern for shareholders in Irish banks. The majority of Irish bank shareholders are conservative, low risk-taking individuals. Many are elderly people who are financing a pension with share dividends. They have been completely ruined, wiped out and destroyed. Nevertheless, the Minister's concern remains with subordinate bond holders. The international gamblers on the banking scene are still the Minister's number one concern.

Why has the Minister not cleaned out the boards of the banks for which we are now responsible? This is maddening the people. We are bailing out Anglo Irish Bank to the tune of tens of millions of euro, but we are also bailing out Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. We deserve to see something done about this. Why has the Government not demanded a wholesale clean-out of the boards of these two banks? Do not tell me we need the expertise of all of these individuals. Some of them clearly did nothing while they were being paid massive sums of shareholders' money to sit on these boards. We must not let them do the same thing with taxpayers' money and be rewarded for doing nothing. The Minister needs to wake up, show some mettle and get rid of the boards of these two banks. His lack of resolve is an indication of his guilt regarding his Government's massive role in this crisis. This is the only explanation for his lack of resolve in cleaning out these boards. He needs to do it. Over time, history will tell us what exactly happened and how the Government was misled. They must feel very foolish. They should examine at their every policy in this area.

Is the Minister being truthful about the valuations he has presented so far? He says the haircut will be approximately 43% across all financial institutions. I have been thinking about this matter. Very few homes have lost more than 50% of their value while the value of development land and half-built commercial enterprises has collapsed by between 70% and 80%. Most of the valuations being done for NAMA are of development land and of half-developed housing estates and commercial enterprises. The haircut figure seems very low for the type of property being transferred to NAMA. We are given the impression that the NAMA properties will receive the same level of haircut as every home in the country. Domestic houses have dropped in value by approximately 40% but the assets being transferred into NAMA have lost considerably more in value. I believe these figures are wrong. We need more clarity about this. It is not long since banks were telling us they were well capitalised, doing well and not exposed. We have been made fools of for a number of months.

I have many questions for the Minister of State and I fear we will have to return to this topic at a later date. The discussion on NAMA should be a longer-term one. What has been reported in the media in the past 24 hours is not the full picture. I believe the banks are hiding much information. Valuations are not accurate and the amount of money required for this enterprise is much bigger than we have been told. The taxpayer is not getting the full story. This is a black day for the people.