Joe O'Toole (Independent)

We must be very careful on the issue of educational qualifications at second and third level. One of the great problems in the last ten years was we confused education with qualifications. It is very easy to talk about those issues that are easily quantifiable but, given the state of the country, how do we ensure the education system will allow us to develop the next generation for every walk of Irish life? That is far more important than how many get first or second class honours and so forth. We need to know if our education system produces people who are tolerant and respectful with qualities of leadership or entrepreneurship and these are not easily measured. That is one of the big problems. Going down this channel of simply creating something that is easily measurable will devalue what third level institutions, in particular, are doing. While it is necessary to do what the Minister is doing — I applaud him for doing so — it must be done in the context I have just outlined. We must be very careful. The things that are most easily measurable are the ones that are also the easiest to teach. I worry about this in terms of how we will proceed.

A case that was going through the courts concluded yesterday. I do not wish to discuss it but its outcome. A young man described his extraordinarily torturous home life during which he was raped, assaulted, oppressed and humiliated daily. This happened between 2001 and 2004 when he was a child of 12 to 15 years of age. In 2001 the HSE was concerned about his welfare and that of his siblings and sought to protect them from the worst excesses of his family. At that stage there was an intervention by a right-wing, religious organisation which took court action and delayed the intervention of the HSE. Consequently, the children were not taken into care until 2004. The events during that period which had everybody sick and almost vomiting as they listened to reports in the last couple of days happened because a right-wing religious organisation interfered when the State saw the need for protection. We should consider inviting the Minister of State with responsibility for children to the House to debate not just the constitutional rights of children which we debated last week and should revisit, but also legislative protection and powers for the HSE and other State bodies to intervene when they believe children are at risk. As legislators, we are quick to point out when the HSE and others are slow to intervene. This is an example of where its intervention was blocked by our legislation. As a consequence, children suffered rape, victimisation, humiliation and constant assault.