Cecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)

I am not an expert in this field by any manner or means. I come from an area close to the North where there are always insinuations or feelings that we could be surrounded by criminal activity. Sometimes one notes people who do not seem to have any credible means but who own a lot of property nevertheless. The border between County Donegal and Northern Ireland is very fluid.

At the recent meeting of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly we were very happy to learn that the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, and the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, Mr. Matt Baggott, were working very closely. I met some of the police inspectors in Derry city who were working on the cross-Border element of organised crime. I acknowledge the tremendous work involving both the Garda and the PSNI.

I once asked the two police forces about cross-Border crime. As it was a little while ago, their answers might have changed since. Last Monday I asked the Garda Commissioner the same question. I did not get an answer, although I received answers to all of my other questions. In the North the authorities are very organised with regard to who is assigned to addressing cross-Border crime, be it associated with drug dealing or other activities. The PSNI is specific on who should attend each meeting. The Garda seems to be a little more relaxed about it in that one garda attends one meeting, while another attends the next. This causes a problem with regard to continuity and the building of relationships. While we cannot direct the Garda Commissioner, I would like to believe he could be encouraged to assign specific staff to deal with cross-Border crime, if he has not already done so. This would ensure continuity and the building of cross-Border relationships.

The Criminal Assets Bureau was one of the main steps forward in trying to deal with money laundering, illicit monetary gains and the financing of terrorism. When criminals discovered their money and property had been confiscated, it was a tremendous step forward in trying to deal with very serious crime.

I asked the Chief Constable and the Garda Commissioner last week the simple question as to whether we needed to revise the limits pertaining to criminal assets. Are we able to focus on the smaller criminal? This legislation can tackle the problem very high up or very low down the criminal chain.

In County Donegal there are many people driving around in Northern Ireland registered cars. There are hundreds, possibly thousands, of such cars. The drivers are not being challenged and the necessary resources are not being given to Customs officials to deal with them. I am told one drugs haul would be worth quite a few cars but my attitude is that if people get away with minor breaches of the law, they are more inclined to attempt major breaches. If we do not address the issue of cars, we must ask how serious we are about tackling those who are breaking the law to a slightly greater extent but perhaps not to the extent of the top criminals covered by this legislation.

Crime knows no borders. Prostitution, the smuggling of drugs, cigarettes, alcohol and diesel, and other activities that provide ill-gotten gains that fund terrorists involve the crossing of boundaries and borders. It would have been interesting had we linked up with the Northern equivalent of the Criminal Assets Bureau. However, the Northern Ireland authorities have moved on to the Serious Organised Crime Agency, with which I am not sure the politicians are very happy. Perhaps it is now bedded down. When changing the system was first talked about, the politicians were very unhappy about it.

Deputy John Curran is the relevant Minister of State in this area. I watched a programme recently on cigarettes being smuggled through ports and airports. I am sure these practices occur along the Border. Customs officials said they had put a massive effort into dealing with this smuggling but when a case got to the court, a fine of €200 was imposed or there was a dismissal. It is so petty one wonders why anybody would bother. The products from which people make money are cigarettes, diesel, alcohol and drugs. I have seen other television programmes on cross-Border diesel smuggling. It appears to any reasonable person who looks at these programmes that the people involved can carve up a nice deal and get off with a relatively light monetary or custodial sentence.

The Bill provides for significant fines and penalties for money laundering. I accept the separation of powers between the Judiciary and the Oireachtas but somebody must have the capacity to ask the Judiciary to examine the sentences being imposed. Perhaps the Judiciary might agree that certain things need to be updated. I am not seeking to interfere but I ask people to look at the penalties imposed in many of these cases and consider whether they are reasonable in the context of the sums of money involved in these activities. Ten years ago I doubt anybody would have guessed the levels of money involved. Consider the amount of cigarettes in the recent seizure. We are talking about massive amounts of money. A few years ago that would not have been possible and might not have been logistically possible either.

Interaction with the North is one issue; interaction with the Judiciary to ensure the penalties are proper is a second. Another is interaction with Customs to ensure it is supported. One hears anecdotes about Customs officials being threatened. They are told: "We are doing this, so turn a blind eye or else." There is serious money and territory involved. It has serious implications. I am concerned that those at official level dealing with these challenges on our behalf are supported in their work. Senator Walsh has said it is very important that these are policed but the police must also be protected and supported.

The issue I am most anxious to discuss is bureaux de change. A bureau de change is one of the designated persons referred to in the Bill. This is linked with the issue of greater customer due diligence for people operating bank accounts. If one takes money out of an account in the Republic and tries to lodge it in an account in the North and if the amount is more than £100, one will be asked where one got the money. That is not a risk sensitive amount, but the figure is set at that level. When I started teaching in England, I was not able to open a bank account there until I had three forms of identity to prove residency. However, as I had only moved to England, I was not able to prove residency, although I had cheques to lodge. I had to get the school principal who had just given me a job to write a letter for me. One of the other teachers also had to write one for me. I had to get letters from everywhere just to open an account to lodge money. That was a long time ago but the United Kingdom was ahead of the game in that regard. I could never understand why I could go to any bureau de change along the Border with money from anywhere, change as much as I wished, drive away and return later that day. I am open to challenge that what I am saying is incorrect but there was no requirement to prove identity and nobody asked where one had obtained the money. There also did not appear to be a limit on the amount of money. Given that it is included under the designated persons provision, I hope the level of regulation for a bureau de change will be as strict as it is for banks. I cannot see a role in this day and age for bureaux de change, as I am not a bureau de change user, but it is important that all of these agencies be subject to the same level of scrutiny. There has been a gap in that regard for some time.

I did not expect to have as much to say on this subject and I am sure there is much I did not cover, but the Chair cannot give me more time. I wish the legislation well and hope it will yield what we require, that is, minimising the amount of criminal activity and the gains people make from laundered money. It is in the interests of everybody that this issue be addressed. I hope the necessary support will be given to the agencies involved. Cross-Border co-operation is at the core of this also.