Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I thank the Senators of all parties and the Independent Senators who contributed to the debate, which has been a very good, interesting and high level. Some very big and important questions have been raised, and many of the speakers correctly said they do not expect me to answer those questions as the events and decisions of the months ahead will in many instances provide the answers.

Greece is the cradle of democracy and of European civilisation, and is integral to the European Union. We have a huge interest in this country, as indeed do people in other member states, in the Greeks successfully overcoming their problems. Nothing would be more foolish than to think we could take some satisfaction or escape the consequences of them falling down in what faces them. The issue is the appropriate and intelligent form of solidarity in the circumstances that helps the Greek Government take the appropriate decisions while also protecting the long-term viability and credibility of the euro, in which we in this country have an enormous interest.

In response to Senator Quinn's comments, it is worth noting that the ECOFIN Council is issuing detailed recommendations and requirements to Greece today involving an unprecedented level of detail as to what is required in regard to public finances, debt levels, economic and structural reforms and wage and cost developments. Greece is being asked to show or explain progress on budgetary targets by 16 March and to submit quarterly reports thereafter. It is also being asked to take additional budgetary measures if the targets are at risk.

I compliment Senator Twomey on a very good speech. None of us can understate the seriousness of the situation, which affects not just Greece but the entire eurozone, including Ireland. The Government is confident that it will be resolved by the Greek Government with the support of all the heads of state and government in the EU.

We had an example in another sphere when we stumbled, if one likes, or when a negative decision was taken with regard to the Lisbon referendum. We had the solidarity and cohesion of other member states and help in terms of addressing the problems so we were able to overcome that and ratify the Lisbon treaty. It is a good example of how EU solidarity has worked in the recent past, and the same sort of approach is being applied in the case of Greece.

Senator Twomey is correct in his comments on the demonstrations in Greece, namely, that they have been exaggerated. In a sense, the opinion polls showing 70% support for the Prime Minister countervails the image of mass protests on the streets.

I also agree with what Senator Twomey said, by extension, about the situation here. Remarks are made, of which I quoted one by a trade union leader. However, those leaders, or certainly the vast majority of them, have a better understanding of the situation than their rhetoric sometimes suggests. I believe they are conscious of the fact their members do not wish to be engaged in actions that will seriously and detrimentally affect their own jobs and incomes. For example, it is very easy for trade union leaders to say overtime will not be done but the union members will tell them that if they do not do overtime, their incomes will be reduced. I make the point to underline that I agree with Senator Twomey's analysis of the situation.

I also agree that much more needs to be done to improve our own public finances, and we have set out commitments in this regard up to the end of 2014. As the natural term of the Government terminates in mid-2012, this will also have to be pursued by its successor, be it the current Government or an alternative formation. We have taken the first important steps and the rewards will begin to be gained through resumed growth before the end of the year.

It is worth pointing out that Greece's problems predate the current economic and financial crisis. It has had for many years excessive deficits in its public finances, large current account deficits and high levels of public debt. Its recent difficulties do not arise primarily from the recession. Unlike here, there were substantial expenditure overruns in 2009 and large revenue shortfall problems owing to poor collection.

A question arises in respect of the relationship between monetary and political union. Obviously, we have a political union of a sort in that the European Union is a political union but it is not a tight political union of the type once envisaged. A Senator quoted a ruling last year by the German federal constitutional court. Broadly, governments remain fiscally sovereign. The European Union is probably the first of its kind in history to be a monetary union but not involving close fiscal union and political union at the same time. In the circumstances, the issue is what is the appropriate degree of co-ordination. The European Council statement underlines the need to keep to the rules of the Stability and Growth Pact. Also, the European Union is looking closely at the important issues of competitiveness and economic imbalances so as to avoid Greek-type problems in the future.

The Independent Senators referred to another set of issues, including financial markets betting against default on Greece's debt. I read with some sympathy last week an editorial in Le Monde which referred to the assistance and support governments, in particular western governments, had given the banks all over Europe and America during the past couple of years and now some of the same people so assisted and supported are in front of their screens trying, if they can, to bring down not just one country but also attack the euro, to which it seems there still remains a certain level of ideological opposition, especially in what the French would call the Anglo-Saxon world. Last week the French Finance Minister, Ms Christine Lagarde, pictured with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in one of this morning's newspapers, spoke about the need to look deeply at the use of sovereign country credit default swaps in terms of the need for changes. She also said: "We are closing ranks: whether we are big member states or small member states, we are all in this together and are not going to let any of us down." To be fair, that is exactly the same attitude she took following the first Lisbon treaty referendum here. I met her at one or two European or IMF meetings.

A large number of issues were touched on in the debate. It is one of the most lively discussions taking place in the financial press, from which several Senators quoted. I was familiar with most of the articles quoted by Senator Mooney, whom I welcome back to the House. I am very pleased to see him here. He added much to the House before and I know he will do so again in the future.

Senator Mary White spoke about China and presented in a pessimistic way its need to fill 23 million jobs per annum. If one turns the bottle upside down and believes the bottle is half full rather than half empty, in comparison with big countries such as China, we need to fill relatively few jobs to put us on the pig's back. I would not necessarily be depressed in that regard.

Allegations have been made; whether they have been proved beyond doubt I am not sure but they certainly merit closer examination: that a finance house contributed to distorting a country's finances in such a way that is not transparent. We all know through the European statistics office that there are accounting procedures that are legitimate and that certain items are allowed off balance sheet. Provided they are transparent to the markets and can be taken into account by them, no problem arises. All member states make use of the degree of flexibility allowed in this regard. If this flexibility is used, without others being aware of it, to brush problems under the carpet, obviously that is a very serious matter, against which we will have to be well guarded in the future.