Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)

Like previous speakers, I warmly welcome the Minister of State. I commend him on the excellent work he is doing in a brief that is more important that ever in the current economic climate. Senator Buttimer made an outrageously political speech but his fellow Corkman, the Minister for Education and Science, is carving out a reputation for himself as one of the great education Ministers supplied by our party. We have had many of them; one or two Fine Gael education Ministers were also great but the current Minister's legacy will be respected for many years.

I will try to bring fresh thinking as the final contributor to the debate. Clearly, it is not rocket science to figure out why the number of CAO applications is increasing. There are few opportunities for school leavers to enter the jobs market directly and the number of apprenticeship places is reducing because of the shrinkage in the construction industry. It is not rocket science to expect that there will be more of a preference for continuing in education than normal and we have to accept this. It is not doing a great service to students who are studying for the leaving certificate to exaggerate the uptake in demand because they have enough worries organising their study to try to get the points they need without being told there are two or three applicants for every place. The statistics show demand is increasing but it is not inordinate. It is in line with the trend of the past few years and in other European countries.

This is not a crisis. Ministers are faced with a challenge but this presents them with an opportunity like everything else they have faced in the recession. Sectors in which there was waste and services were inadequate have been isolated and tightened. The education sector was even worse than other sectors and, therefore, is no different. In response to demand additional third level places have become available, which might not have been the case had the squeeze not happened. More places might be found through reconfiguration and further economies.

I was shocked when the Minister referred to the paltry number of hours third level lecturers spent interfacing with students. That will ring a bell for those of us who attended university. I taught a full day at primary level and worked 22 hours a week at second level but I still had to bring my work home and correct copies and so on. Some university dons swan around the place and only interface with students for three or four a week. That was fine in the days of old style education and the ivory tower when there was no pressure on young people to qualify and be upskilled for the modern world. This issue needs to be examined further. I congratulate the Minister on having the courage to identify it.

Senator Healy Eames is correct about upskilling and how the Government is handling the teaching of important subjects such as maths and science. There is a question about whether we are at the cutting edge. Ireland was at the cutting edge 20 years ago and that is how we got the Celtic tiger moving. We led the posse on the smart economy but I am afraid that is not the case anymore. Major employers in the computer industry have sent out distress signals about future employment. They say workers may be sourced in emerging countries such as India and China rather than in Ireland. Having been head of the pack, we are losing ground. We need to get the whip out and all these issues must be identified and examined.

The Minister of State will say he has not capped the number of PLC places but we all know there is a cap. I contacted a few schools in County Kerry earlier and a number considered they could have taken on 50% more students in a number of courses had the resources and funding been made available. In some cases where, for example, 100 places were provided, they received sanction for the appointment of 0.8 of a teacher. Perhaps this issue can be examined. I am former member teacher unionist. Perhaps a little flexibility is required in the current climate regarding these courses in terms of the pupil-teacher ratio. A small bit of give on all sides would take much of the pressure off and help to remove the bottleneck at third level.

I would like VECs to have a more enhanced role vis-á-vis FÁS and expand the work they do in the community. Many VEC schools deal almost exclusively with second chance education and lifelong learning. There is no need for them to be closed for several months of the year. A school could remain open for 11 months a year without the need for additional hours for teachers. For instance, the VEC in County Kerry has signed a memorandum of understanding with FÁS which will reduce the duplication of services and lead to a better value product for the taxpayer. That should be considered throughout the State.

The CAO system is fair. I have never heard criticism of its operations and it is above board. More time will be needed for the processing of college applications and grant applications to be processed by local authorities and VECs because of the additional demand. Everything boils down to money. If we had enough, there would not be problems anywhere. There are many ways in which money can be saved in the education system. National schools were founded in 1832 and have served the country well. They educated and prepared us to become the nation we are today. They worked well up to the 1970s when, all of a sudden, people became inclined to be more selective, and there was a demand for other types of school, including gaelscoileanna and Educate Together schools. Can we still afford two single-sex schools in one small town? Let us consider that. Primary schools are absolutely first class and are suitable for most parents. I would like to see people have a choice, but we simply do not have the resources any more.

Let us consider secondary schools. In a town such as my own, Listowel, which has a population of 4,000, we have three second level schools — a secondary convent school, a branch of the Diocesan College in Killarney and a vocational school. It is ridiculous and a waste of taxpayers' money. There is duplication as taxpayers pay for buildings, teachers, heating, local authority charges and school wardens for each school. There is a major opportunity for savings.

Will the Minister of State inform the House of the whereabouts of the north Kerry education rationalisation programme, which was launched a couple of years ago under the aegis of a respected educator from the town, Frank Murray? We were assured it was proceeding but, all of a sudden, it has died a death.