Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I agree 90% with Senator Fitzgerald on that point. The Government did the right thing in reversing the decision. I know I am in a minority position on that point. It was taken in terms of fairness for that particular group but the Minister did that group no favours by not explaining what he was doing in the House on budget day when he dealt with all the other matters. I know the way the assistant secretary grade was dealt with. People at that grade received bonuses in lieu of salary on the basis of bringing private sector rigours to bear on public sector pay scales. Last year, they got rid of the bonuses and those people effectively took a drop in salary. The most recent reduction would have been a third reduction in salary for these people. What the Minister did was fair but Senator Fitzgerald is correct. I have failed to convince the many people I have spoken to on this. This should be brought back to the Houses to explain to people how the Minister came to this decision, which I believe is correct. I ask the Leader to get a briefing on this point so that we can debate it in the House. I agree with Senator Fitzgerald's point that this should not be done away from the budget. It needs to be properly explained.

The Murphy and Ryan reports have been sitting there for months on end. I do not know where the Government is in terms of implementation. I do not know what results or consequences we are dealing with. I have raised the question of the involvement of the churches in primary schools, the connection between school patrons and clergy about whom there might be complaints and the conflict between being the school patron and the shepherd of the flock. I do not want this to be interpreted as anti-anything; it is the reality. Everyone dealing with schools, children and education should be vetted properly and correctly. The idea of not making any change and not having any restrictions or rigours imposed on patrons and chairpersons, such as bishops and parish priests who are patrons of schools or chairpersons of the boards of management, shows a lack of confidence in the system. It is not just I who say this. Clergy also say it and the Archbishop of Dublin has raised this issue. We need to see the consequences and we must ask what we have learned from the Murphy and Ryan reports and others to come. What will we do about them? It is a shame if we do nothing about this. This House could make some movement on the matter.