Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I thank my colleague, Senator Norris, for his impassioned contribution to the House. I also thank him for asking me to second his motion which I will do in a restrained fashion. I support his general points.

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. While he has taken this issue in hand, it is important to recognise that he is being outmanoeuvred by the main Government party. I have stated this each time the Minister and I have discussed the matter. It would be unfair of me not to put it on the record of the House. Fianna Fáil is playing ducks and drakes with the Minister's good ideas and is throwing them back in his face. We had understood that all the decisions the Minister was to take in respect of this matter were to have been taken last April. It was then announced that they would be taken last summer and finally we were informed that they would be taken prior to Christmas. As yet, no such decisions have been made. I do not agree with everything the Minister is doing. In the interests of making progress, however, I am of the view that we should do as he suggests in respect of this matter.

We should approach this issue in a proper fashion and we should not attempt to destroy people's political careers. In light of the fact that we live in a modern democracy, however, it must be stated that the method of election relating to this House is nothing other than anachronistic, unrepresentative and undemocratic. In saying this, I do not intend to cast any reflection on those who are Members of the House. I accept that the best of people may become Senators by means of various routes on offer with which I disagree. I, therefore, intend no reflection on current Members or their contributions.

Events taking place today provide a good example in the context of circumstances in which the Seanad lacks relevance. During the past two days the Minister has been hammered in the media in respect of the investigation into the activities of the banks. This is the only matter in respect of which those in the media wish to ask questions and it is the only issue under discussion in the Lower House. One would imagine that the Upper House might be of the view that such a matter might be important, topical and relevant and that it is worthy of discussion. However, we are not discussing it today. I do not intend to discuss the whys and wherefores in this regard but this is an example of the circumstances in which topicality and relevance are lost.

There are a number of issues which we should consider. I informed the Minister previously that one of the difficulties which continually arise relates to those who have a vote in the University Panel and who are also in a position to vote in respect of the various panels. I admire the contributions made by colleagues who are elected through the vocational panels system but, like Senator Norris, I disagree with that system as it is currently constituted. I am not, however, opposed to a system whereby those in the first elected tier in a democracy elected the members of the next tier. That is a well tried process in many democracies and I do not have a difficulty with it in principle. My difficulty arises in respect of the fact that in this country, said system is used to elect 43 out of 60 Senators.

How should we deal with this matter? I am of the view that for each of the vocational panels there should at election time be an inner and outer panel. In the case of the agricultural panel, for example, the former would be comprised of those nominated for election by any four Members of the Dáil or Seanad and the latter would be comprised of those nominated by the agricultural bodies. In my opinion, those on the inner panel should continue to be elected by members of local authorities and those on the outer panel should be elected, in one form or another, by people attached to the nominating bodies. That would make sense.