Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

The proposed amendments would, in the case of amendment No. 8 on behalf of the Labour Party, add an additional section disapplying the pay reductions where there was in a public service body an agreement to achieve the savings some other way. Senator Twomey's amendment which is what we must decide on now would add a further subsection to section 2 to allow for reductions where there were demonstrable improvements to service delivery.

I do not disagree with the general principle underlying either amendment in so far as it recognises the need for improved public services but it is not appropriate to this Bill and I do not propose to accept it. The purpose of this Bill is to achieve the necessary permanent savings in the public service pay bill and we must proceed on that basis. We have an immediate difficulty with the public finances for 2010 and this Bill is intended to address that by reducing the public service pay bill by approximately €1 billion.

I have commented already on the need for modernisation and transformation of the public service and the part that this can play in containing future pay costs and delivering high quality public services. There is a clear agenda on which we can work. I emphasise again that the Government wishes to continue dialogue with the public service unions to bring this about. The Minister for Finance has also made it clear that if there is a failure to engage with this agenda, which affects the public finances further, this could cause continued difficulties with budgetary planning to 2011 and beyond.

I will deal with the specific points made by Senators. Senator Twomey referred to Senator O'Toole's account yesterday of discussions with Secretaries General. He alleged the Government collapsed an agreement. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding. I have been a negotiator on behalf of the Government in a peace process context and as an unofficial party negotiator in regard to agreements with other political parties, that is, the Labour Party or the Progressive Democrats. Wherever one gets to with tentative agreed proposals, they must be referred upwards to the political decision makers who have the absolute right to decide whether that proposition, which has reached a certain stage, will fly. I do not believe it is acceptable to say that, effectively, Secretaries General are the Government and to ask what business the Cabinet has in disagreeing with them. That is not the way things work.

We all agree with the need for reform and modernisation of the public service. That can be done by way of dialogue, and I very much hope it will be. However, as Senator Quinn noted, in the absence of either dialogue or satisfactory agreement, in the last analysis the Government must govern, particularly if, to use the Senator's own words, the alternative is a disaster and there is no choice. While I agree absolutely with the Senator's remarks, obviously one strives as far as possible. As a year remains before the next round of budgetary decisions must be made, there is plenty of time to engage on the issue of reform.

While Senator Twomey referred to cuts, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are agreed on what the order of cuts should be and the Government simply is making the decisions. I accept the Senator does not accept the particular decisions made, but as far as I am aware, the overall amount is not in question between the two parties. I accept the Labour Party sought a bigger role to be played by taxation.