David Norris (Independent)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, to the House. I am not under any illusion that the debate in this House will materially affect the financial course of this country. However, it is important that Members make a contribution as they are an essential part of the democratic mix and it may be that some points made in the House will be listened to. The Minister of State has a capacity to listen and to pass on what is said.

My first point pertains to the budget itself. I was present in the Lower House yesterday and as usual was impressed by the demeanour of the Minister for Finance. He appeared to be someone who was confident and in control. He knew what he was doing and was clear and decisive. However, I am not quite so sure about the speech's preamble or coda. Perhaps the former was a little optimistic and I would have liked to have heard some further justification for such optimism for which everyone is hungry. He stated "the Government's strategy over the past 18 months is working and we can now see the first signs of a recovery here at home and in our main international markets". I would like to know what are these signs of recovery as I have not yet seen much by way of tangible and concrete indications of recovery in this economy. If green shoots exist, they should be exhibited to the faithful to allow them to ascertain the position. Were such green shoots to exist, I would rejoice, and perhaps they do. However, it may be somewhat early to anticipate spring.

In his Budget Statement, the Minister for Finance also stated "The worst is over." I hope this is the case because it is politically dangerous to make such a statement, which gives a hostage to fortune. If the worst is not over, people will become more disillusioned. If there is worse to come, he should let people know as they can take it. However, they must be prepared.

The Minister also put on the record some fairly grim statistics in his next paragraph in which he stated "GDP has fallen by approximately 7.5% over the past year, which is the largest fall since records began." This highlights the scale of the difficulty. Interestingly, he went on to discuss reasons we cannot and should not tax our way out of this position. I believe there is an intellectual justification for this point and some clear facts on the ground also exist.

I listened to the Minister again this morning on the wireless when he made the point that if one considers the profile of the fall in tax revenues, it shows there is a law of diminishing returns in operation and that one could tax the economy into a recession. However, some people could be taxed more, of whom I am one. Another such individual appeared on Joe Duffy's radio show this afternoon. The man in question is employed in the public service, as is his wife, and they do not have any children, which is part of the catch. He stated that his mortgage, which must be fairly fat, had fallen by €1,000 a month over the past 18 months or so. He had anticipated receiving a bit of a whack and would have paid it gladly. Moreover, others in his office felt the same.

While I cannot say whether he simply was a financial exhibitionist, I certainly could take a whack. In addition, I could take a whack on the lump sum of €100,000 I have just received from Trinity College and which I stuck in the prize bonds. Were everyone else in the same position, I would have been prepared for €10,000 to have been taken from it. Moreover, I do not agree with the suggestion that lump sums of less than €200,000 should not be touched. I do not believe this is right because they should be. I also wish to know how much is being deducted from those in receipt of lump sums of €200,000 or more.

The difficulty is that so many variables exist in the human equation. It is not simply one mathematical figure of €100,000. I can afford it because I have no detectable dependents and largely live to myself. My life is not entirely unsustained by joy, mirth and companionship but apart from that, I am not in a financially difficult position.