Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)

Such interference is appalling. I am aware of priests who left the church and subsequently married and I laud them for their honestly and integrity. They were probably not happy in their chosen careers.

I reiterate another point that I made on the Order of Business the other day, namely, that while a small percentage of clerics were involved in the abuse, there were hundreds, probably thousands, of good priests and nuns during the past 40 to 50 years who did extremely good work. However, all of that work was in vain because, as Judge Murphy clearly sets out in the report, in certain instances there was a cover-up of such abuse within the church which failed to respond. Nobody was defrocked or lost his job. Sometimes clerics who had abused were moved from one parish to another. That is appalling. There must be a response, whether from the Irish Catholic Church - we cannot broaden it to include any other denomination - the Vatican or the Pope.

I extend sincere sympathy to the young people who were abused, sometimes habitually, in the nastiest fashion for many years. This has to stop and we must ensure it never again happens as what happened was appalling. In a statement on 26 November the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, said:

Many perpetrators of abuse felt insulated from investigation. Even in cases where information was relayed to An Garda Síochána and the Health Board, there was an assumption that their elevated position in society would protect against criminal prosecution. Access to contemporaneous and accurate information relating to allegations of abuse was patently absent.

This is an appalling admission in 2009 and we hope it will never happen again. No law, whether it be State law, Canon Law, European law or conventions, can supersede the right of children to protection.

I chaired the all-party Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Constitution which examined family issues. Its initial report on the rights of children was initiated by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, when he wrote to my predecessor on the committee, now Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in 2000. Obviously, he had received information that was a source of concern. Having trawled through documents, brought in various groups, received evidence and listened to various experts, we concluded in that report that the rights of children supported within the family, as enshrined in the Constitution, were not adequate. A special committee has since been established to consider a constitutional amendment on the rights of children. I have spoken to the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, as late as today, who has informed me that on or around 16 December he will launch a report on the work of the committee. If a constitutional referendum to enhance the rights of children in Irish law is needed, so be it. I have no doubt such a constitutional referendum would be very well received, that we would have the highest turnout of voters in decades and that the referendum would be carried.

There is a view that this issue may be dealt with adequately by legislation. I have not read every word of the Murphy report but I have read chapters and paragraphs of it and will reread some of them. I have also studied the Ryan report. A legislative response to this issue is not adequate. Constitutional protection is needed to safeguard the rights of children who are the most vulnerable in our society. Various rights are enshrined in the Constitution, including property rights, the right to receive support and an education. However, all of these rights pale into insignificance when compared to the rights of children.

I come from a large family and, thankfully, we were insulated from such abuse. When we read about the abuse of vulnerable children, someone has to cry, "Stop." The whistle blown by Judge Murphy in her report and in the Ryan report, among others, should have been blown many years ago. The Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, referred to successive Governments having neglected, perhaps not in a cynical or planned fashion, the role and rights of children. If anything is to come from this debate, the Government must move on its own to deal with the issue and let the church, in its independent fashion, deal with its own rotten apples. There are rotten apples in the church but the archbishop, in whom I have great faith and for whom I have great admiration, has faced the music knowing about the tsunami that was about to hit him. Even at Vatican level, the Pope must give a more concerted response. What must emerge is that the rights of children in our society in 2009 are paramount. Whether the issue is addressed through a certain framework, measures to ensure the protection of children must be upgraded to such an extent that what has happened in our society must never again be allowed to happen.

I suppose we are all to blame, cumulatively, in some way. We appear to think there are elite groups in society, in this instance, clerics. As an aside, I recall, as a young solicitor in the late 1970s or early 1980s, that if one wanted a medical expert to give evidence in a medical negligence case, one could not find anybody in the State who would give such evidence against a colleague, even in instances involving appalling negligence. One had to go at great expense to the United Kingdom or the United States to find a medical expert. On many occasions it proved so difficult that the case was dropped. That used to gall me as a budding lawyer. Whatever has to be done in 2009 must be done.

I acknowledge that the Murphy report finds that the Garda was not without blame but I welcome the Commissioner's response in appointing a senior Garda officer to carry out investigations. I wish him luck in that trawl. It baffles me-----