Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I am taking the amendments together. It is standard practice to include a provision requiring the chief executive officer and chairman of a State agency to refrain from inquiring into or commenting on the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objective of such policy or policies. Therefore, this legislation is no different in that respect.

It is worth noting the orders of reference of the Committee of Public Accounts. In that regard, paragraph 7(b) of Standing Order 158(i) of Dáil Éireann states the committee shall refrain from "enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a member of the Government or the merits of the objectives of such policies". The proposed amendment in the names of Senators Norris and O'Toole would put the CEO and chairperson in a very difficult position. It provides that they might answer questions or decline to do so. They would be under pressure from the committee to do so and might find it difficult not to do so. They should not be in a different position from other public servants vis-À-vis the Committee of Public Accounts. Therefore, I cannot accept the amendment.

The Minister deleted a proposed subsection (3)(b) which would have prevented the chief executive officer and chairman from commenting on policy in any document or report. He accepted that was excessive.

The Minister examined the Senators' proposed amendments and consulted the Office of the Attorney General on the issue. I am certain he did not promise to lay the Attorney General's opinion before the House because Ministers never do so. A trained lawyer such as the Minister would be least liable to make such a commitment. However, it is his view and that of those from whom he sought advice that the Labour Party's amendment is not necessary. Its intention is captured in subsection (3).

I have a general comment on the notion that the provision under discussion comprises gagging or censorship. Within the framework of Government policy, it is possible to give a great deal of opinion, make assessments, etc. I know this from experience. I did a a lot of public speaking as an adviser. I did not depart from Government policy but noted there were many supplementary points one could make to help to explain in detail what was occurring. Therefore, the provision will not be a significant restriction. There is a clear division of roles. Governments decide on policy and it is normally set out in broad terms. Agencies are responsible for its detailed implementation. It is proper that the interest of any committee be in how the policy is being implemented. If one wants to debate the policy, there are adequate fora for doing so, namely, the Houses of the Oireachtas.