Marc MacSharry (Fianna Fail)

——for non-payment of a debt due to refusal to pay or culpable wilful neglect. It is something I very much welcome on the private debt side, in terms of credit cards and similar products, but such a provision should not apply to mortgages.

I would like to see a proposal along the lines of that which we made in our report to the Minister. I am glad to see the amendment I moved states the protocol for MABS and the IBF can be reviewed and renewed to include a series of other opportunities. It is similar to our report and what Senator McFadden said regarding examining reducing the rates, giving people breathing space, longer maturity dates, rolling-up of outstanding interest, a bank taking equity in a house — I am not sure about that but it is an option — and a bank taking ownership of and leasing back a house.

These proposals were mentioned in our report and by the Opposition. A legislative basis needs to be put in place to guarantee that they will be actively considered. One flaw with the protocol regarding MABS is that it states it is not a legal document. Phrases such as "mutually acceptable", "where possible", "in the event that" and "provided people liaise and work together in an effective and realistic way" are used. The code of conduct from the Financial Regulator refers to viable alternatives. Who determines what is a viable alternative? I have some worries about that.

I acknowledge and welcome the fact that in our amendment we state we will consider all options but, similar to the Court Service of Northern Ireland, we need to put something more concrete in place. Its protocol, which is not a million miles from the proposals from both sides of the House or those envisaged by MABS and the IBF, has a critical line which states "Parties should be able, if requested by the court, to explain the actions they have taken to comply with the protocol". Such a provision is not included in our protocol.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform deals with this area. I would love to see us introduce a further amendment to the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act, which we amended during the summer, focused specifically on mortgage defaulters. I do not support the concept of a NAMA for people. Irish people have their own homes and want to pay for them. As we said earlier, if somebody has lost their job he or she wants to be able to stay where he or she lives. When things become right for him or her again, he or she will live up to his or her responsibilities, continue to pay his or her mortgage and buy a home in the normal way. We need to put in place the appropriate template for people to do that and which gives people breathing space while they get back of their feet. There is no question that there will continue to be a proportion of repossessions and rightly so, because there will be people who, through wilful neglect, refuse to pay their mortgages.

I ask the Cathaoirleach to indulge me. Provident Personal Credit is a finance company which legally charges more than 180% interest in this State. It is not engaged in any illegal activity in the collection of money but a rate of about 30% is more than enough to allow any financial institution to charge. On illegal money lenders, while there are many laws in place in terms of enforcement and the use of illegal methods for collection of a debt, people are not coming forward to the extent they might because they fear harm and violence will come to them. We need to examine the possibility of allowing the sworn testimony of a superintendent as enough to help to convict people who are engaged in illegal and criminal money lending.