Alex White (Labour)

I welcome the passing of the Lisbon treaty by a large majority of 2 to 1, which was an excellent outcome. I congratulate the Minister of State and all the leading spokespersons who ran a much better campaign this time than on the previous occasion. The issues were ventilated more carefully and comprehensively, although the quality of debate, for which we all must take responsibility, on European affairs still leaves a lot to be desired. There were claims and counterclaims during the campaign and it was possible to make polar opposite claims about the same proposition in the treaty. How the two sides could have had polar opposite interpretations of the same measure frustrated many decent citizens who were genuinely troubled about what they should do.

For example, during a wet August day, I decided to go cycling and I stopped at a pub for a sandwich. A well informed, cultured lady in her 70s, who I would guess was a teacher, had also entered the pub. The woman behind the counter, who was also a farmer, asked the teacher how she should vote in the referendum. The teacher said, "Well, for course, you'll vote for it. No question you'll be voting 'Yes'." The women behind the counter contemplated this and said the teacher was probably right. However, she said that during the previous referendum campaign she attended a local IFA meeting where she was told she had to vote "No" because farmers would not get their payments unless they did so. She attended a similar meeting the week before I arrived in the pub and the same people said she had to vote "Yes" or she would not get her payments. I felt like leaning across to point out neither proposition was true. They were both equally untrue. This demonstrates that the quality of debate left a lot to be desired. It probably will be a long number of years before a treaty similar to this will be negotiated at this level but it is a lesson for us that we need public discussion while such treaties are being negotiated and not just at the time they are presented to the people as a fait accompli. The Minister of State will correctly point out that information was available and there was discussion. However, most people are not interested or do not have time to engage in the detail of treaties. They throw the document on their kitchen table a week before they decide to vote but they need time and the documents need an opportunity to breathe.

I refer to the measures relating to the involvement of the Oireachtas in the future. We do not know how many of them will work. They are set out in bald terms in the treaty but they must be made to work. They will not work on their own and, as Senator Cummins stated earlier, the flexibility needed in the Oireachtas should be addressed. We have been killing ourselves regarding our relevance and the relevance of the House over the past few days but there is a great deal of time wasting. I do not denigrate the Chamber but we do not need to do much of the stuff we do. We could, for example, wrestle with the detail of draft European directives.