Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I agree with much of what the previous speaker said. We should have a debate on the question of Oireachtas expenses. We have asked for such a debate before. When I was a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission more than two years ago, I proposed that every application for expenses by a Member of either House should be published in Iris Oifigiúil or on the Oireachtas website. I can see no objection to this. The people are getting incomplete information. There are issues which need to be put to the public. Travel and subsistence regulations are not understood. The travel and subsistence regime in both Houses was designed, not by parliamentarians but by the Department of Finance, to save the State money. However, it is being completely misrepresented. For instance, rural Deputies have an entitlement to claim for a number of trips to Leinster House in the course of a fortnight, while Dublin Deputies claim a number of daily allowances. It is not explained to the people that Members, whether based in Dublin or elsewhere, can claim no other travel expenses of any type during the course of a fortnight. They receive an allowance to cover certain constituency duties but there is no question of them going here and there and claiming payment. That has not been explained. If the public wants expenses to be published, that is what we have to do. It would not save money, but it would bring transparency. We need to look at the matter in that way. There is a public culture which believes the political system is corrupt and in a comfort culture and that everyone else is suffering. If that is the case, we must accept that we need to change things. We must begin by publishing every expenses claim, whether from Senator Joe O'Toole or anyone else. There should be a clear understanding of what expenses are for and where the money is going. It must be understood that Members of the Houses, apart from senior Ministers, have no say in choosing hotels or flights. They do not see that money. What I am saying may sound defensive but it is merely an explanation which needs to be given. There should be a clear understanding of every part of it.

There has been criticism of unvouched expenses. These were originally estimated to be 80% of what the commission considered vouched expenses would cost. The level was arrived at by Goodbody's which calculated that a Senator or Deputy would claim X amount in the course of a year. It was decided that 80% of that amount should be given in unvouched expenses but that expenses one penny above that amount must be backed up with a receipt. The idea was to save 20% of costs. Time has passed and that system does not work any more. We must now move to whatever system receives the greatest public reaction and ensures transparency. We should debate this matter, not in a defensive way but in order that it can be explained to the people. Our expenses should be published. If Members think that is unfair, we should benchmark our expenses against those in the private sector. However, no one in the private sector would be expected to live in Schull, be in Dublin three days a week and look after a constituency in Cork on the other days. There is no real reference point in the private sector. Nevertheless, there are issues at which we must look. We must use private sector benchmarks to determine our expenses and what we are entitled to receive.