Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

The Minister for Finance has said he expects the institutions which require additional capital to explore all available options for raising such capital. The Government's preference is that private market solutions be found. The banks and building societies benefiting from NAMA are expected to increase the equity component of their capital as the NAMA asset transfers are implemented. The Exchequer has invested €7 billion in Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland by way of recapitalisation this year. These moneys pay a coupon of 8%, which pays a total of €560 million per annum to the State. The State also holds warrants in both institutions and these shares have, as has been pointed out, increased in value.

Senator MacSharry is correct that it is often difficult in the polemics that rage to obtain objective assessments. Senator O'Toole has pointed out that much nonsense is talked in the midst of serious debate. Like the Senator, I am quite an admirer of the French President, Mr. Sarkozy, who has a good deal of chutzpah. I listened with interest to his comment that we were not part of the G20 and would not directly participate in that forum.

Senator Quinn was right to highlight, as I did, the Exchequer deficit of €20 billion and the interest payments associated with servicing that debt. Interest charges may not be too onerous in the early years as one builds up debt, but if we keep going as we are, the associated interest payments will create a huge burden for the next generation. Senator Hannigan addressed the same topic but seemed to suggest we should perhaps not take the required borrowing too seriously. He referred to Lord Thomas Macaulay's comments on the ruinous effects of debt and the rhetoric about this in the early 19th century. I would go back a century earlier to Dr. Johnson who observed that there was a lot of ruin in a nation. It is no accident that one of the bases and foundations of the prosperity of the Celtic tiger years was that we managed to drive down debt and associated interest payments to very low levels. We are fortunate that we did so, given the crisis that has since hit us.

While I agree with Senator Mullen on the value of educational investment, it does not mean to say of that or any other area that there are no conceivable economies to be made and that nothing can be done more efficiently. No area, however important and valuable and however great a priority it is, can be immune from action in securing better value for money and achieving more for less.

Senator Boyle is correct to be cautious about what have been referred to in other countries as the green shoots of recovery. It is uncertain whether such signs of recovery will be sustained bearing in mind that stimulus packages are due to be withdrawn by various governments. Only time will tell. I agree with the Senator's emphasis on the importance of restoring confidence.

Senator Coffey made a very constructive contribution. The question of how social partnership may function in the future is worthy of consideration.

Senator O'Malley is absolutely correct regarding the importance of the view of the markets. The danger at the end of last September was that, regardless of objective realities, the markets could have brought the entire banking system crashing down. The Senator is also correct in her observation that professional costs and fees, including those of the medical, legal and dental professions, are in many cases out of line with those in other countries. This is an issue that must be addressed, but it is open to question whether market forces alone will be sufficient to achieve this.

The reasons advanced by Senator Pearse Doherty as to why it is quite okay, economically, to vote "No" in the referendum were totally unconvincing. I believe it would be a huge mistake. He referred to certain investment figures. It must be borne in mind that most foreign investors are hoping, assuming or assessing that the Lisbon referendum will be passed and are making their decisions on that basis. If, on the other hand, the vote goes in the other direction, I believe it will have serious consequences. People such as Senator Pearse Doherty and other members of Sinn Féin really must pay some attention to people who have experience of business and decision making.

It is richly ironic to hear requests for apologies coming from Sinn Féin. For about 30 years, a very long time, there were as few apologies from that organisation as there were condemnations, and real evil was involved in many of those instances. Before making such calls, people like Senator Doherty should look at themselves in the mirror.

Senators Healy Eames and Buttimer made broadly the same point, that is, who will look after people under pressure? Practically everybody in this society, with some limited exceptions, is under pressure or certainly under a great deal more pressure than heretofore. Some people are in a position to adjust their habits; they would probably include most Members of the Oireachtas and others who are on relatively good incomes. However, others are under very serious pressure. There are various forms of assistance for employment and there is, of course, the social welfare system, which is being called on to a hugely greater extent. It is not possible for the State either under this Government or any alternative to be able to-----