Mary White (Fianna Fail)

Yes. He said that he had presided over gangland trials where juries had returned the wrong verdict. In what was described as the most outspoken contribution on the Bill by a sitting or former judge, Mr. Flood said the plans of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to send gangland trials to the non-jury Special Criminal Court were necessary to maintain order. He said that until we take a firm stand these people will walk all over us and steps have to be taken to bring this under control. He said that if one has a problem with juries and intimidation, which we obviously have, three to five High Court judges presiding over a gangland trial in the Special Criminal Court would be reasonable and would be certain to get a fair result.

I do not wish to delay matters by quoting what the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, said about how difficult it is to get people to serve on juries. It is a pity so few people are aware of what was said in the Dáil last week regarding the difficulty in getting people to serve on juries in gangland trials. It is understandable that people are nervous and fearful. However, it is shocking to discover that in the 2003 trial for the murder of Kieran Keane, 729 people were called for jury service but the State found it impossible to get 12 to serve. It is important that people are aware of that reality. There must be an engagement with the public where there is a change in public policy. The facts must be made known so that there is an informed public debate. This type of intimidation is the reality in the areas where these gangs operate.

As I said, gardaí are apparently aware of the identity of gang members and are of the view that specific legislative measures are required to ensure these people are brought to justice. I do not see how it can be claimed that a person cannot get a fair trial where that trial is conducted before three to five High Court judges.