Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)

The issue under discussion is opinion evidence. Senator Bacik referred to the Hederman report. The normal understanding of opinion evidence is based on section 3(2) of the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act 1972, which states with regard to certain offences related to paramilitary organisations: "Where an officer of the Garda Síochána, not below the rank of chief superintendent, in giving evidence in proceedings relating to an offence ... believes that the accused was at a material time a member of an unlawful organisation, the statement shall be evidence that he was then such a member." That is not in this Bill and I thank the Senators for at least acknowledging that fact. The reason this amendment was tabled in the Dáil was a misunderstanding that what we were proposing in section 7 was similar to what is contained in the aforementioned Act with regard to opinion evidence. The penny has finally dropped that we are not going as far as the Act does, mainly for the reason, as mentioned by Senator Bacik, that the interpretation by the courts is that it cannot be accepted solely as evidence of guilt and that there must be corroborative evidence.

The difficulty with gangland crime, as I mentioned in my Second Stage speech and in the Dáil, is that it is far more difficult to prove the existence of a paramilitary organisation than a criminal organisation or gang. Gangs by their nature do not have membership lists or the types of structures that paramilitary organisations are recognised to have. The members of such organisations, when they go into court - now that they have latterly recognised the courts - accept that it is easier to ground a conviction. That is one of the reasons the offence of membership of an illegal paramilitary organisation has been one of the more successful in terms of prosecutions with regard to the paramilitary threat to this country. However, it is different for criminal gangs. A certain number of people who are known to be part of a criminal gang could be meeting on the side of the street but they could be talking about last night's football match. Thus, it is more difficult to prove that the gathering has criminal intent.

After the Shane Geoghegan murder I was exhorted by Members of the Oireachtas to consider again the issue of opinion evidence. I was encouraged to introduce what was effectively internment - lifting people off the street, as one Member said.