Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, to the House for this important debate. Much legislation relating to the criminal justice system has come through the House in recent years, most of which has been targeted at the serious criminals involved in the drugs trade. There was an element of turning a blind eye by society when such persons were murdering their gangland competitors in a cavalier way. In recent times, they have also targeted innocent people. It is evident that despite the incremental improvements we have seen in legislation, they have not arrested the problem. I followed the debate on these measures in the newspapers and in the other House. I agree that when we are making changes to legislation, we must be mindful of fundamental human rights. However, there is no more fundamental right than the right to life, it being the basic human right which underpins all others. If that right is not protected, other rights become irrelevant.

I would be more inclined to take note of the statements made by the Human Rights Commission and others on this matter if they had included any acknowledgement of the human rights of the victims of these murderers and gangsters. It is seven years since we spoke in this House about the savage murder of Brian Fitzgerald. As I recall, Senator Cummins was Fine Gael spokesperson on justice at the time. Mr. Fitzgerald, a security guard, was trying to safeguard the clients of the premises in which he worked by not allowing people with drugs into the establishment. He was murdered in cold blood as a consequence of that. Richard Kelly was a 19 year old who stole a car from a member of one of the Limerick gangs. When he discovered the identity of the owner, he quickly returned it but was subsequently murdered by the gang.

We all recall the murder of Shane Geoghegan. We must ask ourselves about the human rights of his parents, colleagues and those with whom he played rugby. His human rights have never been flagged in lights. The murder which was the ultimate catalyst for this legislation was that of Roy Collins in Limerick. His father and the journalist, Paul Williams, spoke about the murder on the television some days ago. Both of those men are under Garda protection because they have been articulate in criticising the thugs involved in gangland crime and in promoting the interests of society. Another murder victim was Anthony Campbell, a young man shot in Dublin because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The most recent murder was that of Wayne Doherty last week, shot down in cold blood in Dublin. We must acknowledge the human rights of his wife, Karen, and their two children. We have an obligation to address these issues.

I do not buy into the overemphasis that is placed on ensuring the human rights of criminals are ring-fenced and protected when they are in court. Many such criminals are able to exploit the system and evade justice. We must be realistic in all of this. The Minister is taking a measured approach in this legislation. Some of the negative commentary is predicated on a misinterpretation of its provisions. The Bill provides that organised crime offences shall be scheduled offences, which means they will be heard in the Special Criminal Court provided that the Director of Public Prosecutions directs that it should be so, presumably on the basis of the evidence with which he or she is presented. What is objectionable about that? The argument has been made that this removes the jury from the process and thus represents a departure from ancient traditions. We must meet the current onset of very serious, destructive and irresponsible organised crime in an effective way. If it cannot be eradicated, we must at least ensure everything is done to diminish it significantly. We are far too wedded to some of the current features of the justice system.

The Bill provides for a new offence of directing or controlling a criminal organisation, which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. Heretofore, very few of the major leaders of drug gangs have been imprisoned. Of those few who have been sentenced, conviction was secured on foot of an offence other than that for which they are notorious. I understand one such person is currently imprisoned on a tax default charge. If we are realistic in the manner in which we target crime, we must tackle it on the basis of the offences that are being committed almost with impunity by these people. Existing legislation provides for a minimum sentence of ten years for those found guilty of dealing drugs. However, it is often the mules who are arrested rather than the ganglords themselves. The latter, some of whom are worth hundreds of millions of euro as a consequence of their illegal activity, seem to be able to operate with impunity. It is right that we are now creating this new offence, which is overdue. I applaud the Minister for introducing it.

In the context of our judicial system, we need to examine sentencing. Life imprisonment should mean exactly that, and if a sentence is for 15, 20 or 25 years then that is what it should be. There should not be remission just because somebody behaves themselves in prison. We have strong anecdotal evidence that many prisoners still carry on running their organised crime gangs while in prison, which is an untenable situation.

There is an amended offence concerning participation and involvement, which carries a penalty of 15 years' imprisonment. There is also evidence based on the expert opinion of a member of An Garda Síochána. The emphasis there must be on the fact that it is an expert opinion.

There is an expectation that these new measures will be a panacea. While they will be a significant improvement, I do not believe they will amount to a panacea. We need to look at the next step, but I do not go with those who say we should consider internment. We should examine the capacity of our criminal justice system, however. I do not see why we should necessarily be wedded to the common law system, which is so beloved of barristers for a variety of reasons. The Napoleonic code, for example, would allow for these gangsters to be taken into custody, await trial while in custody and subsequently the courts would dispose of the cases before them, by prosecuting, convicting or releasing the accused.

If we fail with this legislation, I would strongly argue that we must examine the next step, including the advantages of the Napoleonic code where there is a presumption of guilt. If one asks gardaí or people living in the affected areas, they know precisely who are the crime gang lords. They also know about the money they are raking in through their involvement in illegal activities. We should be pragmatic in the way we approach this matter. Society wants results and I applaud the Minister for taking a courageous step in this direction.