Joe O'Toole (Independent)

Dr. Whitaker did a massive job for Ireland. Political leadership is important. It is also important that we look at how we got to where we are.

I listened to an extraordinary discussion on radio recently between a well known figurehead of the Irish motor industry and a member of the Green Party, who is a Member of this House. I listened in astonishment to the head of the Irish motor industry say that collapse in the motor industry was related to Government policy and Green Party policy in particular. All of us know, except, it would seem, the person who was the asking the questions, that we were being screwed with high car prices for the past 20 years. The same people in the motor industry are now able to reduce the price of cars. The price of a Mercedes has been reduced by €15,000 or €20,000 in the recent period. These people can look into a camera, speak into a microphone and blame everyone else.

People have pointed the finger at me this morning about my involvement in benchmarking and salary negotiations. Life is simple in that regard. There were two choices involved. I sat at a table in Government buildings and said I was unhappy with the taxation system, with the lack of local charges and with many other areas where revenue should be raised. The Government did it its own way. There are people, including some colleagues on these benches, who believe that public sector and private sector workers should stand back and look for low wages while the bosses and the owners take huge profits and all the excess from their companies. That is never going to happen. The issue is about getting a balance. We need to ensure there is balance throughout the process.

It is fair for the Minister to say that the IMF and OECD reports are not all bad in respect of Ireland. They were critical of previous decisions and they are critical of certain aspects of Government policy, but they were positive about what the Government is doing. I would not hesitate in saying that I supported the Government's decisions on the bank guarantee, the recapitalisation of the banks and, most reluctantly, on the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank. It would have been too much of a risk to let it go bust. We saw what happened in the US when it let a bank go bust.

Some Members on the Government side believe that selling bonds is like selling cars, that we make a profit every time we sell them. Those Members tell us once or twice a week that we sold all our bonds on the European market this morning. What that means is we got a loan in Europe and we owe more. It is positive in one sense that we managed to sell them and that people managed to give us a loan but in the long term it is like all loans and will have to be paid back. We should be clear about that.

What the Government is approaching in terms of NAMA is the only game in town. I listened to my colleagues in Fine Gael and I have listened carefully to what Deputy Bruton said. He makes sense in what he says about having a good bank and a bad bank alongside each other. I do not understand what happens next. I have an understanding of NAMA. It might not work but I am prepared to give it a try. Similarly, I do not understand how the Labour Party proposals on nationalisation would solve the problem. I like the idea of the State owning banks. One of the attractions of NAMA is that at least we will finish up owning the bank in Ballsbridge, or wherever it is, and will have the deeds to the place. That has a certain attraction to me, coming from rural Ireland, in that it is important that even if we are left with no money at least we will have a couple of acres of ground.

We need to look at where all this is leading us. I say to the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, that my criticism of the Government is on a different basis. The Government has not engaged fairly with Fine Gael in particular and to a lesser extent with the Labour Party. One can blame them if one wishes, but there are good ideas everywhere. We, on these benches, do not think wisdom is lodged in any one place or person. I would like to have seen an engagement taking place, as Senator Hanafin sought on a number of occasions in recent weeks. I did not hear that engagement this morning. I heard important contributions from this side of the House also but there is a need for engagement.

People are inclined to jump on the bandwagon. The Spirit of Ireland is a good example. People on the other side think this is brilliant, new, fresh thinking. It is a good idea, but there are other good ideas. The first thing one must do is get wind energy going. In the constituency of the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, the local authority has received a proposal to establish a wind farm in Bellacorrick that would produce 500 MW of energy. That is one tenth of the peak output demand in this country. The local authority produced a report and made great progress on establishing the extent of wave energy potential off the coast. On that basis it could also produce 10% of peak energy demand.

What I do not understand is why the Government does not make those things happen. I accept wind energy is not a constant source of power. However, wave energy is constant. If we forget about the gas resources for a moment, County Mayo could export and supply energy outside the county. It could certainly supply all the energy needs of the west. The Green Party in government talks about developing the green economy. Here is a classic example. The local authority in the Minister of State's county has put forward a blueprint as a model of best practice. It has done all the research and it has models in the sea. The project is ready to go. It would create jobs and reduce our energy dependence on imports. It is the way forward.

Senator Mary White referred to fresh thinking. Only one person in government need say this is a good idea, stress test it and put it into practice. I do not see why those things are not done. There are other similar areas. If we meet in ten years I urge Senator Mary White to remember my words today. On a map of the world showing the location of the greatest wave energy, the highest wave energy is not in the southern ocean, as people might think, it is not around the great continents, it is between north Mayo and Rockall, where there is an average wave height of 2.5 m to 3 m throughout the year. That energy exists and can be harnessed now.

My colleague, Senator Ross, raised many times how far we have fallen behind in broadband provision. We led Europe in that regard ten years ago. Similarly, we led Europe in wave energy only five years ago, but we have been passed out in the past two years. Now there is more happening in terms of wave energy in Scotland than there is here. Scotland has connected to the grid wave energy off the Shetland Islands and other such places. Something can be done here in that regard.

The proposals being discussed in Government Buildings on job creation and job protection are the way to go. It is better to invest money in a controlled way in maintaining jobs than to pay dole. My colleague, Senator Ross, and I hold different views on the pluses and minuses of social partnership. Let us take this week, for example, when the electricians were on strike. Let us examine what was going on. Those electricians were earning €40,000 a year and they were expecting to get an increase to bring them up to €45,000 based on the agreement they had signed in blood. Instead of that their salary was being reduced to €36,000. Everybody spends to the limit of their income. The electricians had to consider whether it was economic lunacy to go on strike. People here do not seem to understand that the electricians were facing financial disaster, not economic lunacy. They were fighting for themselves and their families.

Let us consider why the broader trade union movement supports them - I am not saying whether they were right or wrong. I am giving a one-sided view. The electricians saw themselves being screwed into the ground and losing out. The broader trade union movement realised it was the electricians now and it could be carpenters, teachers or whoever else next, and they decided to stick together. That is what was going to happen. People might say that the electricians and others do not understand the economic situation. The only way one can bring discipline into the situation from all sides is through a national partnership agreement where a view is taken on what one is trying to achieve in the economy. One has to set down that there will be no increase, a small increase, a reduction or whatever, and people are tied into it. That is the only way one gets discipline and control.

As I said many times and as the Pope said this week, the free market does not cure the ills of society. We need to keep those issues in play. I agree with Senator Mary White in terms of where we are going with the economy. It is about political leadership and recognising social responsibility but also giving space to entrepreneurship and reward for real risk taking. What we saw from the banks in the past ten years was not risk taking, it was gambling - there is a significant difference.