Martin Brady (Fianna Fail)

It is true, as the Leader said, we must lead by example. That is the way one brings people with one. The general public, as Senator Buttimer said, should not be the reason for this legislation. We have to do the right thing because the general public and the media will not thank us for the new arrangements we are making.

Senator Cassidy made a valid point on remuneration. When I worked in the Civil Service, the post office, in the 1980s and budgets were tight, the basic pay was so bad one could not survive on it if one did not get overtime. Overtime made up half the basic pay. At the time we had to take the pay cut but when business picked up again our wages went back to where they had been.

As Senator Buttimer said politics is a costly job in which to stay. There is not a day of the week – I am sure most Members have the same experience – when I do not get letters from all groups in my constituency looking for €200, €500 or €600. If I were to pay it all out, half my salary would be gone in subscriptions to these groups just to stay in business. Regarding Senator Buttimer's other point about staying in business, one needs an office in a constituency, one has to keep up to speed and one needs high-tech equipment. Members get no allowance for this whatsoever.

The definition of expenses is that when one is out of pocket, one is reimbursed. I do not believe anyone in any job should be out of pocket. However, we should not make martyrs out of ourselves just to show the public we will go along with this. We should not demean ourselves to such a degree that we become doormats and there would be no respect for us.

Recently at a Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting I became unpopular for raising the issue of Members receiving a salary and ministerial pension at the same time. It does not happen in any other walk of life and I am glad action is being taken on this. That was the one issue about which the public was complaining.

Regarding the point that we are linked to civil servants' salaries, I counter that I am in politics because I like it. I am not in politics to become rich. When I was first elected to the Oireachtas, I was informed by some Members that their salaries were very bad. When I delved into it, I realised that for some of them politics was only a sideline because they had large businesses and were millionaires and billionaires. I could understand what they were saying about salaries as we have to compare like with like. However, my bank statements verify that at the end of every month I hardly break even due to the fact I must pay a large amount to keep in business.

We must lead by example. However, at the same time we must be paid for what we do. Politics is a high-risk business and it is difficult to stay in it. Many pay a high price for politics with family life affected as well as one's own. In some cases, one's health can be affected. Many had short careers in politics due to health reasons. As Senator Butler said, many left the Houses broke, some of whom I know myself. I welcome the ministerial pensions aspect of the Bill. I concur with our Leader, Senator Cassidy, that when times get good again this legislation should be re-examined.

Members often say they would earn ten times as much if they were not in the Houses. That rubbish annoys me. I say to them they should leave as there is no one chaining them to here. Some Members complain it is terrible in here when they could be outside earning so much or being a doctor.