Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)

I was taken by his remarks and I agree with what he said. He spoke of reservations, ethics, morals and responsibility. Let him accept the amendments from this side of the House. As Senators Alex White and Regan said, let us not have a rushed day here. His speech is nothing but an apology for the Government. He does not stand up for what he believes in and he should vote with this side of the House.

We need to remove the threat of imprisonment and we also need the threat of sanction. On this side we advocate ending the use of imprisonment in debt enforcement. Debt rescheduling and mediation should be the norm. I accept there must be a sanction overhanging the issue. Debt enforcement has implications and those who default must repay. I was involved with a credit union on a supervisory committee for a number of years and I understand the predicaments and precarious positions people get themselves into. In many cases we are talking about the most vulnerable in society, people who end up going to moneylenders and being forced into all sorts of difficulties.

The judgement we refer to has forced changes and the Bill reflects this. I compliment the Free Legal Advice Centre on its document and Senator Regan on his detailed amendments which will be before the House later and on his speech in the House this afternoon. I hate the word "debtors" because we are talking about people. The majority of people in debt acknowledge their debt and understand they must repay. Between 40 and 50 people are in prison on any given day to pay a fine, with a total of 2,000 people per year. I will return to the cost of that.

The Bill, which is a result of the McCann case, proposes that we amend section 6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act. Fine Gael, as Senators Regan and Twomey have pointed out, oppose the Bill as it retains imprisonment as the final option for non-payment of a civil or contractual debt and offers no alternative to imprisonment for debtors. We need an alternative. Senator Boyle spoke about being in recessionary times. People are under increasing pressure to make ends meet. On top of that, some people find themselves in debt in these economic times. More than 400,000 people are on social welfare and dependent on the State. They are trying to live a life with some type of food, clothing and the means to pay bills such as heating and energy costs and they end up in difficult and dire financial situations. All of us in our clinics and private lives have met people who are struggling.

Through Senator Regan we have proposed instalment orders which remove the threat of imprisonment while giving people the security that the debt will be repaid. I do not believe a person in debt should be imprisoned. We see what has happened with our banking profession where people have been allowed to get away scot free, and with some of our developers who have codded people. Last week in New York, Mr. Bernard Madoff was carted off to jail. In this country the friends of Fianna Fáil get the white flag and the red carpet is rolled out. It is a bit like Palm Sunday in reverse.

We have proposed an attachment to earnings order which removes the option from a person not to pay the fine. Under such an order, a fine would be deducted at source from a person's salary or social welfare in a fair and balanced way. It can be taken by percentage in an equitable way that is very much in keeping with what the Bill is meant to be about. We would see a maximum threshold being established and one would pay in proportion to one's income. For example, the courts may establish that no more than 5% of a persons' income could be taken in any given period. That might be significant in some people's wages, but it would remove the threat of imprisonment which outweighs the contribution.

From my experience, many credit unions are willing to reschedule members' loan repayments and the conditions of the payments if people's circumstances change. I have been at credit union AGMs where the chairman has issued on behalf of the board of directors an appeal to people in difficulty to talk to the credit union. I appeal to people in financial difficulty to talk to their credit union or bank. The credit union control committee is committed to assisting its members who are ordinary people. It was the credit union movement which commenced the money advice and budgeting service in Cork.

It costs almost €2,000 a week to keep one prisoner in jail. In 2008 the average civil debtor spent 21 days in prison at a cost of €6,000 to the State. By any man's language that does not make sense. We have proposed a balanced and fair system whereby the debt would be repaid and the granting of an attachment order by a judge would allow a portion of a defaulting person's wage or social welfare payment to be used in repayment of the loan. While sanctions are necessary, imprisonment is a step too far, especially when we consider what has happened in 21st century Ireland where there is now no acceptance by some people of their wrongdoing and where such people have been aided and abetted without having to pay the price, which is wrong. We are now discussing penalising ordinary people when we should be assisting them in repaying their loans.