Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

The case we are discussing is not unique as similar cases have occurred in Ireland and other jurisdictions. Such events challenge us all to find ways to try to prevent their recurrence. Nevertheless, one must draw distinctions between different incidents. Given that we have just concluded a three-hour debate on child protection issues arising from the Ryan report, it is understandable that the focus of this debate should be on child protection. The issue, however, is wider than that and includes the issue of mental health.

There have been other cases in which children were killed by their parents. We need to be mindful that no parent in his or her right mind would even contemplate carrying out such an act. Senator Mary White made an interesting observation on the unfortunate case involving the Grace family in County Wexford. In that case, a mother sought to speak to a social worker only to find the service was not available. She subsequently went to the River Slaney and she and her children drowned. That case focused attention on the need for an out-of-hours social work service.

I am not certain the Monageer tragedy mirrors the tragedy of the Grace family. Based on the report, it seems there was a considerable degree of planning involved. As we have seen in other cases, including in other jurisdictions, when one partner snaps in circumstances where there has been conflict between a husband and wife or cohabiting partners, he or she may take the children away with the unfortunate result that both they and the parent and question are killed. These are usually spur-of-the-moment cases.

In the Monageer case, I find it difficult to see how social services could have acted to prevent the outcome. We need to examine such matters, rather than simply prescribe what appear to be plausible and ready-made solutions which may not yield significant results or improvements. It struck me reading this report that the couple involved appeared to most outsiders — there is nothing in the report to suggest otherwise — to be getting on satisfactorily themselves but kept to themselves. The report underlines that Adrian Dunne's IQ was 64 and he was perhaps bordering on mild mental handicap, and that his wife, Ciara, was a slow learner.

The report recognises as well that both families, in particular the O'Brien family, had little interaction with them. Therefore, they did not have that wider support which often is fairly essential and necessary. Indeed, there was a great tradition of that in this country in the past where there might have been three generations of a family living together. I suppose economic circumstances may well have dictated that happening but there definitely was a social benefit derived from that. Indeed, anybody who has been to China will have been struck by the fact that such a system is still very much in operation. There are many benefits, particularly for the development of the children where they have the support and loving care of both grandparents and parents. This family appeared to have cut itself off from that.

I am also very much of the view that while there will always be exceptions, many families live their lives well in privacy and look after their children well. While the State has a supportive role, there is this line between supporting and protecting, or perhaps interfering, and that is a difficult balance to achieve. It is easy in hindsight in this instance to look and state that intervention would have been desirable, and nobody would disagree with that. According to the report, approximately four weeks before the tragedy the family visited a sports shop. As Liverpool Football Club supporters, they were looking for some Liverpool paraphernalia — a Liverpool teddy or something — but the mother actually remarked to the person in the shop that she wanted to put it in the coffin with a child. Equally, on 4 April when they rang the undertaker anonymously and made certain inquiries of one of its staff, they talked about pre-planning a funeral, not only for themselves but for their children. That would indicate to me that this was something which was being planned in advance.

It is interesting that also in that conversation the person who took the call felt that the gentleman, Adrian, who was on the telephone was being prompted by a lady behind him. Nobody will ever know. Who can go back into the minds of people who were in that situation? Whatever the cause, it is most unfortunate for them, for their children and, indeed, for their wider families. It was a terrible tragedy to befall them and, unfortunately, others have had to experience the same pain and grief.

I commend the Garda, the priest and the undertaker who were involved and who conscientiously did what they felt was reasonable and right. I am inclined to agree with the report that this was a situation where a social worker's intervention would probably not have made a difference to the outcome. I am not even sure whether the intervention of a psychiatrist would have made a difference.

It brings me back to the entire area of mental health and people who become suicidal or depressed, many examples of which we see for a variety of reasons. Often those who know or live closely with such persons express surprise that this should happen and it is that area we should concentrate on and try to develop so that such instances can be minimised. Such instances probably will never be totally avoided. If they were, it would be great. At least they can be minimised.