Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

-----but the consequence of their getting the increases has been that the units have been vacated. Of course that impinges on other businesses and on the viability of the centre.

People must act commercially. My reason for being very reluctant to legislate in this regard and for preferring that rent reviews can be either up or down would be that over the past 30 or 40 years only upper rent reviews have been applicable. In general, this has not been a major problem and has attracted a great deal of investment into the construction sector and property development. I know it is popular now to keep scrutiny on developers and their kind but if we are to attract inward investment into the property sector, particularly in a climate where any such investment is very mobile, we must insure we do not put ourselves in a very uncompetitive situation vis-À-vis property development investment.

The difficulties we are going through will work their way out, admittedly with much pain for the economy and society in general, but we will come through all this. Therefore, decisions we make must ensure there will be foundations for sensible economic growth in the future. I join the Minister in encouraging landlords and property owners to play their part in the current climate. It is in their interest as well as in the interest of the economy. However, it is possible to be over-prescriptive and we should be slow to respond to interests which might be exploiting the current downturn to their own advantage and, in consequence, perhaps creating significant difficulties for investment and investors in the future.

With regard to the Bill, it is my view that self-regulation does not work and we have seen many failures in this regard. In the legal profession, as much as in any other, self-regulation does not work. For a long time I looked for a move to a regulatory system of the legal profession, including of judges. The Ryan report was strongly debated in this Chamber today. A Senator alluded to the fact the Judiciary was not beyond culpability in some of the instances that occurred whereby youngsters were put into these institutions for very minor offences. One cannot blame the justices for what happened subsequently in those institutions but nobody should be above regulation.

I am disappointed with regard to this matter. I raised it before, having been in Canada with the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, and proposed to two of the Minister's predecessors that there should be an independent judicial council, comprising the profession's own peers, which would look at the conduct of judges. It reflected badly on these Houses and on our system that we had to set up a committee which found it extremely difficult to impeach and dismiss a judge in circumstances where that action would have been highly appropriate. Equally, I saw a situation in which a senior judge had to resign simply because there was not another procedure to deal with the issue, which was one that probably did not warrant his resignation. I appeal to the Minister that we move in that regard.

Concerning these issues, it is imperative that the people who are engaged to occupy such authorities have the commitment, capability and proficiency to discharge those functions adequately and satisfactorily. The Minister mentioned that the CEO of the property services regulatory authority has been designated already. What process was used to appoint that person? Was it done through an independent outside recruitment body? That should be part of what we are now inculcating into the public service system where there is to be open competition and where those who apply can be from either the public or the private sectors. There is enough anecdotal evidence that many of the bodies and regulatory authorities we have established have often been manned and managed by people from the public service. These people may have had some expertise in the area but had very limited experience with which to carry out the new regulatory function. We have seen serious failures in our regulatory system, certainly in the financial sector but also in others, and these continue. If the State feels it is desirable to establish a regulatory authority, there is an onus to ensure those we place in charge of such authorities are of the highest calibre and well equipped to function efficiently and effectively in that area. There should be no ring-fencing of the competition or of the engagement of personnel.

A personal hobby horse over many years has been the local appointments commission. This operates as an old boys' club. I know of an instance many years ago where a vacancy occurred at the most senior level in a local authority. As soon as the job was vacated it was possible for me to be told who the successor would be, long before competition commenced. That is unacceptable and should be changed and there is recognition at certain levels within the political and public systems that it should be changed. We should move to a situation where those involved in recruiting are experts in the field of recruitment and independent of any internal influences and favouritism.

It is essential the property services regulatory authority operates on a cost efficient basis. We hear a good deal about value for money these days within the public services. We have not been getting it and in many instances we are not getting it at present, with certain notable exceptions. People working in the public service should fully accept the idea of those on enormous salaries looking for demarcation to protect their own little empires is unsustainable and untenable, particularly in the current climate. There are excellent people in the public service, but we need to have a mix of public and private workers in these authorities. That would enhance the operations and ensure effectiveness and cost efficiency.

The property services regulatory authority will be funded by the industry itself. In the case of the Financial Regulator and ComReg, too, for example, one sees the authority getting its funds from the sector it is regulating. I believe that leads to a certain element of incestuousness within the structures. In this context, comment has been made in particular as regards the relationship between the Financial Regulator and the banks. Industry will seek to cultivate good relations with customers, regulators and others as part of doing business. However, it is important the effectiveness of the regulating body is not blunted as a consequence of the close personal relationships that may arise. I should prefer to see the State collecting the licences or the funding for all such regulatory authorities. The moneys could then be allocated, as appropriate, for the operations of particular bodies. Comment has been made, too, at Oireachtas committee level on occasion that because there is so much money sometimes flowing into these authorities, they do not see any necessity to be cost effective. That happens in all organisations, whether public or private. The more money that flows around, the more flaithiúlach people become as regards how it is spent. Therefore we need to be careful in that regard as well.

I expected the management companies attached to apartment and multi-unit developments would have been addressed in the Bill, but I understand and accept this area is to be dealt with separately and there will be legislation in that regard, which is essential. We should examine the multiplicity of authorities with very high levels of salary being paid. It might be interesting to know, for example, what is being paid to the chief executive-designate, from what position he has come and what his salary was there. I have analysed some of the payments made in the various authorities and there has been a tendency to equate some to those of the Secretaries General of Departments, the top tier of management. I do not believe that is necessary or essential. Often these regulatory authorities are essentially functions that can be performed by good administrators who possess the knowledge and work ethic to ensure performance is up to standard. It will be interesting to see how things shape up as regards this authority.

Mortgage brokers, too, might well have been considered under this legislation. To some extent they are governed by the Financial Regulator but I am very conscious of the failures and deficiencies in that area. It is a vital component of the whole structure as regards people buying property as well as the notion of protecting consumers in that regard, and this should be given some consideration. In some instances where the auctioneer is a mortgage broker for the purchaser he or she must get the agreement of the vendor in that regard, and that is a good provision. However, we might need to go further than that.

Overall, the Bill is to be welcomed. The Minister of State has gone through its various aspects very clearly and indicated how the licensing system might operate. It is imperative, as regards training and the maintenance of professional standards that there are proper and effective courses, and these are easily accessible. We will need people in these businesses and it is important the education and training facilities are readily available.

I have a background in the haulage industry and when similar professional competencies were introduced in that area, one saw the necessity for people to have qualified personnel. However, people with experience of running such businesses over many years may well have far more enhanced expertise than those qualifying in various courses and this is something that might be considered. The letter of engagement is important. As regards penalties I welcome very much Part 6 of the Bill, which deals with the maintenance of records. It should be illegal for somebody to have a phantom at the auction pushing the price up and there should be very severe penalties. The penalties for both the vendor and the auctioneer should not be less than the amount excessively extracted from the purchaser.

I do not have time to go into the Bill in further detail, but obviously we will do this on Committee Stage.