Mark Daly (Fianna Fail)

We are taking our cue from Sweden and other countries. While we would demand more for less, we have no doubt that a cut in budget has an effect on other people. We do not want to be the Lord Trevelyans of this time. However, what is more pressing than overseas aid budgets, as our learned friends in the NGOs are aware, is our trade policies with developing countries. These have a more detrimental effect that anything else on their survival and development. The EU's trade agreements with African and Caribbean countries and others in the Third World are preventing their development more than anything else. For every €1 billion we give them we take away €3 billion because of our trade policies. Thus, we are stifling their growth and preventing them from working their way out of poverty.

Recently, there was an interesting presentation to the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs about Mozambique, where the production and processing of the coconut crop has a major impact on the surrounding areas. This is how countries get out of poverty. Giving people hand-outs is not good enough. This is also true in terms of employment, as we in this country know. People have to be trained and given skills and then they must work their way out of poverty. It is the only way forward. We must reform our trade arrangements, not only in Ireland but also by using our influence within the EU to persuade it to improve its trade policies. We are imposing detrimental trade policies on these countries, which is hard to believe. We are giving these countries a pittance in overseas aid relative to the amount our trade policies are costing them. This is the area on which we must focus when there is less money available for overseas aid.

I commend the Minister of State and the Minister for Foreign Affairs on their work with our partner countries. We have rightly focused on a small number of countries, unlike countries such as Switzerland which, at one stage, was dealing with 50 different countries, but has since followed the Irish model and narrowed down the number of countries somewhat to 24. The money must be targeted as much as possible on AIDS and education, which is a key factor. In Zambia, which I mention again because I was there, Ireland plays a role, with the Dutch, in developing an educational curriculum. Instead of sending out one teacher we send out somebody to train other teachers, eventually producing 6,000 teachers who will educate the next generation.

There is no silver bullet for solving the problems with overseas aid. It is not a question of demanding more money or fewer cuts, it is about being more intelligent in our approach and using the fact that trade is the means for these countries to lift themselves out of poverty. It is not just a question of giving money but of targeting money and helping with governance. While some would say governments are corrupt in Third World countries or indeed throughout the world, we must help good governments because ultimately somebody must run the departments of education and health. If we do not promote good governance and monitor donations properly to make sure they are not squandered and do not go astray, these countries will be perpetually in need of our assistance and will never be able to run themselves.

I remind Senators that 160 years ago, during the height of the Famine, the British would have said that the Irish could never run their own country as they did not have the education and were not fit to do it. In that case, it took generations. It is a generational problem, but we must take that approach and try to improve education and trade links over time. Education is the key. To quote Thomas Jefferson, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free ... it expects what never was and never will be." I refer not just to freedom from foreign occupation but freedom from hunger and want and for people to choose their own future. Education is the key to that, which is why Irish Aid is much involved in education.

The most stifling problem in all of Africa is that of AIDS. With regard to Zambia, one thinks that if we educate people about AIDS it will reduce the prevalence of this disease. However, one must consider the prevalence even within the health system. A total of 38% of doctors and nurses in Zambia are HIV positive through their own behaviour, although they know how it is contracted and spread. They know the consequences because they deal with them every day, yet they engage in risky behaviour and contract the disease. One must wonder how many generations it will take for the tide to turn and people in Africa to take responsibility for their own actions. I have tried to explain to people at home the problem of HIV and AIDS in Zambia with regard to the culture and customs that exist. Changing that culture would be the equivalent of persuading people in Ireland they could no longer go to the pub but must drink at home. I do not think that will ever happen in Ireland, so it will take generations to achieve the equivalent in Zambia. It is a question of teaching people how AIDS is spread and how to prevent it.

The issue of human rights in Gaza was discussed today at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. This is also connected to our aid budget, and Ireland has taken a lead role in supporting John Ging, a great Irishman who is working with the UN in Gaza and whom I have had the pleasure of meeting. He is the epitome of grace under fire. We saw him on our television screens during the recent invasion of Gaza by the Israeli Defence Forces. Although the truth is often lost in the midst of war, John Ging is a great example of a man who is able to state his case simply. Ireland's support for the UN in Gaza is important. Europe's preferential trade agreement with the Israelis, of which, as clearly stated under Article 2, respect for human rights is an essential element, is still in place despite the glaring examples of human rights abuses during the recent invasion. This was recently the subject of a resolution of both the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I ask the Minister to take this up in his reply and to consider this issue.

In summary, helping other countries is not all about money, it is about trade as much as anything else. If we are to lift countries in the Third World out of poverty we must be fair with them in terms of trade and help them by targeting our aid towards education. By targeting education we can turn things around so that these countries can help themselves. If we continue to give them money without giving them the means and education to provide for themselves, nothing will have changed in 100 or 200 years' time. I commend the motion to the House.