Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)

I will try not to delay the House.

I thank everybody who contributed. I appreciate the contributions from various points of view. Naturally I have a particular respect for Senator Quinn, given his background, when speaking on any matters to do with food. It is important to listen to all views and take account of the research, as well as to consider the global picture which comes naturally to me because my Green Party background is based on thinking globally and acting locally. I constantly reflect on the question of how to feed the world because it is staring us in the face. There are endless reports. If we could eat paper we would not have a problem - for example, Cambridge University Press has published a report entitled Can Organic Agriculture Feed the World? Studies around the world have posed this question. One might offer a view based on genetically modified, GM, foods which represents a paradigm shift and say to hell with it, we have to go GM and go large scale. That view often comes from people who are used to large scale agriculture on the American prairies or places where people have the machinery and need only switch over to a higher yield.

When I was in Ethiopia with Irish Aid I put the various choices to the government there. They listened, took it all in and said they had a system of small scale agriculture. They do not have the infrastructure to collect fertiliser, never mind collecting GM inputs, such as seed. To get a donkey to go to a market town could take two days and then they would have to measure time against efficiency, which they do differently from us and which we would find difficult to understand. They said they need more research into organic farming because it is closest to what they can deliver. It involves nutrient cycles and people having small productive farms. These are the people most affected by hunger.

John Flahavan, whom Senator Quinn quoted, said that for most of its life Flahavan's porridge has been organic because it pre-dates the introduction of nitrogen in 1909. He sees it being organic in the future as the phenomenal growth shows. We have been living with a windfall of energy and food production on the basis of that energy and we need to put into practice the next transition to post-oil production. That is a luxury on which we need to reflect because it will not be possible in the future. I am not holding a candle in any way but all these issues need to be considered very carefully and acted upon. We do not have time for a long-term transition.

We know from the pork crisis how quickly the shelves can clear when there is an interruption in the food supply. The more diverse the supply, the more likely it is that we will be resilient enough to withstand the shocks internationally. This is where the gambit of direct sales comes into play in addition to the considerations associated with the retail sector.

Organic produce is more expensive because, in spite of our complaints about energy, the oil we get from the ground is a lot cheaper than human energy. Somebody mentioned to me that he had worked out that if one were to compare the petrol in a full tank with human hours, bearing in mind the cost of labour, one would conclude that it would be the equivalent of approximately 8,000 human hours. Nobody is suggesting we pay a garage 8,000 human hours to fill a car; we are talking about a system of food production that is subsidised because we are not paying for the human labour that would otherwise be required to carry out the work. We are looking at the issue from the wrong end of the microscope. If we say organic production is more expensive, we should realise its cost is closer to the real price of the food. At present, we are in denial that energy will cost more than it does at present. Unfortunately, it is a geological reality that it will cost more. Difficult as rising costs may be to contemplate, we must keep prices competitive and as low as possible.

Senator Bradford, whom I am sorry I interrupted, should note I am surprised organic sales are holding up so well. The Senator and I are listening to people saying times are tough, that they must cut back and cannot pay for things they really do not need. The reality seems to be that people are cutting back on eating out, which is of benefit to the retailers but not to the restaurants. Instead of eating out, people are buying good quality ingredients, cooking at home and having an entertainment experience at home similar to what they would have outside the home. The organic sector is benefiting from that shift. It is great from the perspective of organic producers. It must really be read twice that while conventional food sales have risen by 2.7% since the beginning of the year, organic food sales have risen by 11%. One would have believed the figure would be lower. These statistics are from Bord Bia. I asked it whether it was sure about them and its officials said that is the evidence. Senator Quinn stated that the way in which people respond to challenges is quite complex. I have outlined one of them.

A lot has been said and I will not touch on everything. Senators Carty, Daly and O'Sullivan referred to lamb. It is frustrating because our lamb production is so close to being organic. I remember mentioning this at an Oireachtas committee and somebody asked why it could not just be called organic. The reality is that the sector has continued to be resilient because it enjoys public confidence. No matter what the pressures are, it maintains its standard. For example, genetically modified produce is not used. This has a lot to do with the public, or the "royal customer" of which Senator Quinn speaks. Regardless of what one might believe or prescribe, customers, by and large, do not want genetically modified food. If they are to contemplate it, they will want it labelled very clearly. They are not confident it is labelled at present and therefore opt for organic produce. One of the main reasons sales of organic food are so high in Austria is because the produce is guaranteed to be non-GM. It was discovered that customers were buying organic produce as a primary consideration.

On the subject of lamb, which has nothing to do with genetic modification, I have asked Bord Bia to revert to me. I attended the Teagasc conference at which we heard from Mr. John Brennan, one of the main people involved with the Leitrim farmers' co-operative. He stated 11,000 Irish organic lambs enter the market every year while there are 100,000 in Scotland. Ireland supplies organic lamb up to December, after which we depend largely on New Zealand lamb. Mr. Brennan suggested one reason for the difficulty in entering the retail sector with organic lamb – perhaps I could discuss this with Senator Quinn after the debate – is that there are not enough opportunities for direct sales. He said Bord Bia needs to market the organic option. There is considerable investment in marketing spring lamb, but with no reference to organic production. We need to take stock of what has been said today. I ask Bord Bia to take note of what has been said by everybody.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to the clear public perception that organic food is a healthy option. He referred to the study in Newcastle University, which study is the most comprehensive. The peer review is almost complete and we will have a very rigorous scientifically researched reason for presenting a comparison of evidence pertaining to conventional and organic foods. The University of California carried out a ten-year study, focusing mainly on tomatoes. There was evidence that there are more flavonoids and antioxidants in the organic versions, which stands to reason. Organic standards are such that one must plant in soil. A lot more nutrients are obtained when planting in soil than when planting in rockwool, in which most conventional tomatoes are grown. There is nothing in rockwool and the nutrients must be fed in by a drip or hydroponics. A select amount of nutrients, produced in laboratory conditions, is fed to the plant. While organic growing might take a little longer and production may not be so uniform, more nutrients are available because plants are grown in soil.

Evidence suggests that organic milk has more vitamins than non-organic milk. In Austria, milk and potatoes are the two main products in the organic sector. The Austrians read the evidence and chose this course of action.