David Norris (Independent)

With the greatest respect, I challenge the Cathaoirleach's view on that. I have served here for 21 years and, traditionally, Members spoke, at some moderate length, particularly on an important Bill such as this one. It would not be appropriate to close such provision and I am glad the Cathaoirleach, in his wisdom, did not do so.

I welcome this Bill. I believe everybody would agree that for Ireland finally to be brought into line with the Hague Convention in this respect must be a good measure. Senator Fitzgerald stated this clearly. The Minister of State and the Civil Service can be complimented on doing that. There are divided opinions about other aspects of the Bill.

We have learned that considerable emotional charges surround this Bill. This is understandable in a human sense. In terms of the blunt instrument of a mass e-mail campaign - I hope the canvassing and lobbying groups will also learn a little bit from this - it is not intelligent to catch people who are on one's side in friendly fire. That simply eliminates support or, perhaps, can even negative it. This mass scattergun approach does not always help politics. If the approach were more focused, that would help all of us. I say that as somebody who loves to get a good brief.

With regard to the Minister of State, I am not sure that there were any huge areas that were not at least stated or implied; I make that point to be positive. I would like to place on record my gratitude to Carol Coulter for once again writing an absolutely excellent series of articles on this important subject in which she raised significant issues.

I had to leave the Chamber briefly during which time I managed to put in ear plugs and listen to a contemporaneous debate on RTE Radio 1 on which a number of international experts were discussing this Bill and the Vietnamese situation. The kinds of phrases used were about buying and selling children and whether this could happen. This was the concern of the Americans and Swedes. We would be well advised to take this into consideration. The Bill presented a good opportunity for us to examine this idea and to make sure this does not happen.

It should also be placed on record, because it was placed on record over the airwaves for the Irish public, that the Department and the Minister of State were not insensitive to the feelings of people. A practical, professional approach was taken when Mr. Geoffrey Shannon, the leading authority in this country in this area, was sent, as one of the principal officers of the Department, as a member of a delegation to Vietnam to explore this situation. That seems to be a proper, professional way to address this issue. However, it may well be that the visit by a Minister would be helpful because of the way in which these matters are regarded in the Orient, the question of status, saving face and such matters. I am glad that the Minister of State has given a commitment that he will go there.

I was glad to take part in this debate and I learned a great deal from it. There were some exciting amendments, including my own. I got quite snotty occasionally, but I also learned a good deal from the passionate contributions of others. It was interesting that many of the most passionate speakers were women. The contributions were led by Senator Fitzgerald on this side, ably backed by Senator Healy Eames, Senator Bacik on our side, Senator Prendergast of the Labour Party and Senator Mary White of Fianna Fáil. I felt as in the title of a John McGahern novel "Amongst Women" and I was very glad and comfortable to be among women.

I welcome the passage of this Bill through the House. It may not be perfect, but legislation rarely is. Something most interesting occurred during this debate and I say this in a non-contentious way. Senator Wilson, my good friend, whom I respect greatly, had the honesty to acknowledge that an amendment I put forward was a good one and that in his view - he was persuaded by the irrefutable logic of what I said - it did not create a charge on the Exchequer. In terms of Seanad reform, we need to examine this method of the ruling out of amendments. I thank my colleagues for informing me and opening my mind in as far as it can be opened. I thank the Minister of State and his staff for passing what will be a positive step in safeguarding the welfare of children in this country.