Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I second Senator Fitzgerald's proposed amendment because it is important to do so. In the last three or four sitting days the Leader gave a commitment to 22 different items for debate. I certainly want to see how the order of this House is set. Issues have been raised, such as Senator MacSharry's last week or the week before on the need for us to discuss Standing Orders and the way we order the House and do our business. These are important issues.

This House is under intense scrutiny. Members should be mindful of the fact that today in the House of Commons, a man with a solid majority and in a safe position is having to resign. It is important for people to recognise that we can look at the criticisms made about this House, many of them unfair. We can talk about the number of days we sat, what we did, votes and all the rest and try to respond in a defensive manner. That would be a major mistake. We need to think strategically about this and deal with the big issues. We should make demands of members of the Government about their commitment to this House and ensure we address the issue of reform.

The Leader should appreciate that leadership is necessary in the Seanad to bring forward this initiative. There is no place for any type of so-called cute hoorism. We have seen and are seeing across the water that a political majority in a democracy may be swept away in a tide of public contempt or disdain, and we need to look at this. This matter needs to be examined with a certain element of humility and certainly more humility than hubris in terms of defending ourselves. Fair as well as unfair criticism is being made against us. We are in public life and we should be accustomed to that. We can take it and deal with it. We can deal with each criticism as it arises but this is not the way to do it. We need to look at the big issues and deal with legislation so that people may see us doing our work.

The issue of NAMA is important for someone like me who does not take a party position on this. I can listen to Deputy Richard Bruton and hear the sense of what he has to say. I can listen to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and hear the sense of what he has to say. I can listen to outside commentators and hear the sense of what they have to say. I am a firm believer that there is rarely one right answer to serious problems. The Seanad needs to deal with this. I do not see why the Minister, who is doing fine work on his tour of Europe and on which I compliment him, cannot have a conversation with Members of the Seanad on the pros and cons of NAMA, who will run it and how it will be administered. I would like to ask Deputy Bruton who will run the banks if we take them over.

There is a story in today's newspaper to the effect that extra people will have to be employed to run NAMA. The same, I presume, would happen if we took over the banks. Who would do these things? How would these things work? Where will the shareholders be after this? How will the risk be managed?

We have a job to do. We had better do it immediately. In seconding Senator Fitzgerald's amendment to the Order of Business, I believe NAMA would be a good place to start. There are 20 items on the Order Paper. When will we deal with those issues? If we cannot deal with them we should say so. The beginning of a week is a good time to deal with these matters.