Barry Andrews (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)

We have had a very useful debate. I was fortunate to hear the second half of the debate which was opened on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform by the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney.

A number of interesting issues were raised which I would like to summarise. As Minister for children the last point made by Senator Burke is something I would be cognisant of but violent video games in particular are difficult to police. One person's taste is different to that of another. One could describe the old cowboy and Indian films as a graphic depiction of violence. Should we censor those? Should we censor the John Wayne movies which depicted bar room brawls? Are they a graphic depiction of violence? Do we censor Arnold Schwarzenegger or Clint Eastwood films, or Tom and Jerry? I do not mean to be facetious about it but there is a difficulty in that regard.

I accept that we are clear about the graphic depiction of sex, which would be described as illegal content in regard to the Internet and so on, but there is a much more equivocal approach to the graphic depiction of violence. An argument could probably be made for us to consider more seriously the limits and borders we set for our children in particular because as other Senators have said, it desensitises children. There is no doubt about that, and it is all caught up in violent settings that are the very settings we are discussing, namely, gangland crime. It is something we must try to tackle.

I am Minister of State with responsibility for children. The children of the families involved in gangland crime are seldom mentioned but, clearly, those who are brought up in this setting are at risk, inevitably will engage in a life of crime and, at the very least, they will have the lowest regard for the State and its authority and will be completely desensitised to violence. I refer to whether the child care services should take a more proactive approach to the children of those involved in drug and violent crime and intimidation and whether the issue should be more honestly addressed by the HSE, which has responsibility for the care of our children. We are quick to take children from a family if they are at risk, neglected or being abused and the proper criteria are established. Children brought up in violent settings in Limerick, Dublin and elsewhere are being exposed to risk and the criteria leading to the HSE considering care orders in their respect have been met prima facie . These parents love their children very much but it is arguable whether they are fit to bring up children in those scenarios. I visited Limerick recently and gardaí and social and community workers pointed out that children under the age of 12 who are not subject to the criminal code are used by families for the purposes of intimidation, knowing that the Garda cannot reach them. These are serious issues.

Reference was made to the categorisation of young children who hang around as being engaged in anti-social behaviour. Young people like to hang around in groups but that does not necessarily mean this should be categorised as criminal activity. They engage in high jinks and horseplay that can sometimes be described by over-sensitive adults as drifting into the arena of criminality. Young people are critical of the way they are always depicted by adults. They are always depicted in a negative light whether that is because they are drinking too much or engaged in anti-social behaviour. It is in their nature to want to hang around together. They to not engage in activities that are criminal and sometimes we can be over-sensitive to those issues. We must pay particular cognisance to that.

Senator Regan claimed gangs in prisons are not being tackled. The Irish Prison Service devotes significant resources to tackling gang members in prisons. It is an offence to have a mobile phone while in prison and convictions have been secured. The number of searches has been stepped up in our prisons using X-ray facilities and dog units. I reject the Senator's characterisation of the Irish Prison Service as being inert on this issue. It is important that our prisons are used for rehabilitation as well as punishment, as Senator Hannigan said, and that people have an opportunity to change their ways.

Senators Regan and Walsh mentioned the Bill to establish a DNA database while Senator Bacik pointed out that progress has been made. The judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in a case will be significant in the context of how we progress the issue.

Senator Norris inquired about CAB's asset profilers and referred to fellows with sun tans who in poor climatic conditions may present as an anomaly in the context of their declared income and their perceived wealth. His description is accurate. CAB officials try to identify such anomalies and prepare cases accordingly. He also referred to the debate about who set up CAB and whose idea it was. He mentioned the late Tony Gregory, while Senator Burke referred to Nora Owen and Senator Walsh referred to the Ceann Comhairle's role. Everybody had a role, including the Labour Party through Deputy Quinn, who had a significant role working with Nora Owen at the time, the Garda, community workers and Tony Gregory. They all identified that co-ordination between the Garda and the Revenue was missing. That issue was addressed and it was redounded to the credit of the State. Officials from other jurisdictions have visited to observe that model. Many people had a significant input.

It is an offence to attack a member of the emergency services, including gardaí and fire brigade personnel. Senator Norris raised this.

Senator Bacik referred to using statements in court that witnesses recant. This provision was introduced in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 in the context of the Keane trial following significant intimidation of witnesses. Statements given in the police station were resiled from by the witnesses and the trial of one young man collapsed. I vividly recall him showing the fingers to photographers on his way out of court. The former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, introduced the measure, which was a significant development in our criminal law because it meant the statement could be accepted into evidence, although it cannot be cross examined in the normal way. It is presented as evidence subject to a number of warnings contained in the Act.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Commissioner launched a new model of community policing in January, which is being rolled out nationally. I agree with Senator O'Malley that we must respond to the evolving challenges, including, if necessary, draconian legislation. The Constitution protects many fundamental freedoms and rights, as she said, including the right to one's bodily integrity. That was not afforded to young Mr. Collins or Shane Geoghegan and we have a duty to protect people from intimidation and violence. That may require tougher legislation, about which there seems to be a consensus in this House. We cannot make excuses to do nothing in this area. The Garda is devoting the resources necessary in Limerick. I visited there recently and community workers and community gardaí say the Garda is doing fantastic work there. The regeneration model will, hopefully, benefit Limerick in the long term.

Legislation is in preparation and it is not correct to state we are doing nothing. Yesterday the Minister introduced the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Bill in the Dáil. This will step up the security response to the changing nature of crime by providing a basis in law for secret surveillance and facilitating the use in evidence in criminal proceedings of material so gained. He is also working in consultation the Attorney General on the introduction of further measures along the lines of those in place to deal with paramilitary groups to tackle organised crime gangs and, in particular, their attempts to undermine the criminal justice system through extreme acts of violence and intimidation. This includes issues such as membership of crime gangs, a difficult and abstract concept to prosecute. These measures are in addition to work under way on further tightening the legislative provisions relating to guns, knives and similar weapons. A de facto handgun ban is in force. Work is also ongoing on the creation of a DNA database and the Minister expects to seek Government approval to publish a Bill shortly to give effect to his justice for victims initiative as well as to introduce further elements of considerable benefit in the fight against crime.

Reference is made from time to time about the comparatively low level of convictions in gangland type killings, to which Senator Cummins referred. The Garda has made significant progress in the investigation of a number of killings but members of the force face considerable difficulties in obtaining evidence in shootings that are the result of gangland activities. It must be accepted that associates of a victim of a gangland killing who have information of value to the Garda often do not co-operate, even where they have been the victims of violence. A number of changes to the laws of evidence have been made to address this. It has also to be accepted there is often no connection or personal association between the victim and the perpetrator, which makes it difficult for the Garda to investigate such a murder. There is often no connection or personal association between the victim and the perpetrator, which makes it difficult for the Garda to investigate such a murder. Witnesses may also be subject to high levels of intimidation. The witness protection scheme is in place to assist such witnesses.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has expressed his concern at the number of handguns licensed in recent years. The majority of licensed firearms holders act responsibility and pursue their interests legitimately. It is regrettable the more handguns held by the population the increase in the risk these guns will find their way to people not licensed to hold them. Following a series of judicial decisions, there has been a significant increase in the number of handguns licensed. As there was no public policy decision to bring about this, the Minister has brought forward proposals which include no new licences being issued for handguns, subject to limited exceptions in the case of Olympic sports.

I thank Senators for their contributions.