Conor Lenihan (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)

——and people with courage and integrity on the Opposition benches to call foul if they believe a foul has been perpetrated in terms of a public appointment. However, we all need to be sensible about these matters. It is not good enough for Government always to abnegate its responsibility and hand over appointments to outside bodies of one kind or the other. They, too, in many ways in a moral sense can be corrupted or they can often opt for mediocre appointments because they are afraid to take a chance on somebody who may be extremely good at the job, and their role in that respect could prove to be a worse result.

Senator O'Donovan referred to the hard-working capacity of the new chairperson of this body. Senator Bacik raised the perennial issue of whether it should be a three-person or a one-person body. The Government's view is clear, namely, that it should not be a one-person body. In the Irish context policing, and issues related to it, can be extremely difficult because of the precise smallness of our society. This is one of the perennial issues and difficulties one observes in politics and even in matters related to finances and the banking sector, namely, the easy familiarity and the ease of access we allow ourselves in this Parliament, in the Government and throughout our society. People talk about six degrees of separation but, in fairness to Irish life, because of our history of long-tail families etc., there is probably zero degree of separation between one person and another. That poses its own difficulties.

To my mind, the three-person construct around this body is appropriate. I draw Senator Bacik's attention to the fact that the Act specifies that there should be a man and woman appointee among the three appointees. Without over-stating it, that is a positive move towards addressing gender inequities that have existed on boards and continue to exist to this day in the membership of the Oireachtas in the Dáil and Seanad. Therefore, the gender aspect is important.

The three-person appointment system is a good measure. When sensitive work had to be done in our courts system when this island was assailed by the serious form of terrorism practised by the Irish Republican Army from the 1970s onwards, we depended on the non-jury Special Criminal Court to hand down judgments where issues such as the intimidation of witnesses, judges or otherwise might have been involved. That three-person court worked effectively. Despite many objections by civil liberties groups to its operation as a non-jury court, internationally in legal circles it was well regarded precisely because it had the balancing aspect of three judges, a High Court judge, a Circuit Court judge and District Court judge. It had a balance of those personalities and the balance of the different court systems.

Such balance exists in this body in terms of its three-person aspect. Ms Carmel Foley represents the consumer rights consciousness that has been very much part and parcel of our modernisation since 1970s. Mr. Conor Brady is a distinguished person who has served with the media at senior level, having been an editor of a major national daily newspaper and in whose journalistic life pursued a strong form of investigative journalism. He was not a docile, mundane reporter but rather was highly involved in investigative journalistic work, both as an editor and a practising reporter. The merits of Mr. Dermot Gallagher are obvious to all Members on a cross-party basis in this House.

Senator Hannigan raised the issue of transparency and the views of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties. He raised the notion of cronyism and the pall of cronyism hanging over this House. I am not particularly conscious of it. I have seen many appointments made by Fine Gael that were extremely good ones. I have also many seen Fianna Fáil appointments. I have seen bad appointments made on both sides both to the Judiciary, important boards and elsewhere. We are living with some of the consequences of board appointment in the banking sector by boards and executives who should have done better in terms of the calibre of people they appointed. Those appointments will have to be rectified because it is not good enough to advance people purely on the basis that they are one's friends or one knows them. They must have suitable characteristics and qualifications to do the job.

Senator Boyle made a good point concerning the examination of a scrutiny procedure for appointments by a committee of these Houses. It is not Government policy but at a personal level, speaking as a Dáil Deputy, I would welcome that approach suggested by the Senator of having a level of scrutiny of such appointments through the committees of these Houses. Unfortunately, because of the smallness of our country, we tend to politicise almost every controversy that arises inside and outside these Houses. Unless such scrutiny is exercised responsibly, we would quickly descend into what I would call politicised lynch mob activity against individuals. We would want to be careful of that. I have no problem with such scrutiny at a personal level. People who are put into positions that carry serious responsibilities should be robust enough to be able to withstand questions from Dáil Deputies.

Senator Walsh referred to the joint policing committees and the need for them to have more regular meetings. He talked about the issue of whether this position is full-time. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission is appointed on a full-time basis. I have no doubt Mr. Dermot Gallagher will give all his full-time efforts to this particular task. It is a busy and difficult job, all the more so because the ombudsman commission has formal investigation, detection and arrest powers. Its officials can enter any Garda station and can interview anybody. It has three strong teams. Half of its staff of 98 people are devoted to the investigative side of things, which is as it should be. That is a serious responsibility. The expectation would be, although it is not prescribed in the Act, that the ombudsman commission should be full-time. Given its members' independence, it is left to their own discretion the number of work hours they put in. There will not be an issue about Mr. Dermot Gallagher's work rate, given that I was often stunned to receive calls from him at 7 a.m., when he was already at his desk busy working. At one level it was quite frightening to think that the permanent government was not only ahead of one and in the office before one arrived but was alive to the issues of the day that needed to be clarified and dealt with.

Senator Daly referred glowingly to Mr. Dermot Gallagher's career. We join in congratulating him on his appointment. He will be the kind of the person who will exercise his role in a fair and proper manner.

I thank Members for their contributions. We have gone to a new point in Ireland in regard to policing where it is transparent, the systems are transparent and the investigation is real. To underline the importance of this appointment but also the importance of the office, I advise the House that I had to rely on the ombudsman commission on one occasion. I was surprised because I had not fully absorbed the full powers this body has under its tutelage. I refer to the unfortunate case in my constituency where the driver of a Garda car killed a young man. I was surprised to learn that every death involving a member of the force, whether on duty or off duty, is automatically referred to the ombudsman commission for investigation. That is a strong guarantee in terms of role of this body.

The young woman who lost her son in this case was very worried and, not unlike many other members of the community, had doubts and reservations and perhaps had listened to gossip or rumours or had fears that something sinister had happened in this accident which involved the unfortunate death of her son. I went to her house to talk her through the issues involved in the case after her son was buried. I asked her whether she was happy a death was automatically referred to the ombudsman commission without any consideration of the barest facts, even if the facts were very obvious, even if it was very obviously an accidental death and even though that caused great personal concern and anxiety to the individual member of the force who was the subject of an investigation. I asked that young woman who had lost her son and was in deep grieving over the unfortunate circumstances of her son's death whether she was reassured by the fact that it would be automatically investigated and that there would not be an internal inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the death. She said the one thing that gave her great confidence in dealing with the grief and bereavement that she was going through was that it was now going to be investigated properly by somebody other than and independent of the normal investigative process of the Garda Síochána. That is a tribute to appointing an office such as this one. I again thank the Members for their positive contributions.