Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)

Sorry, the National Pensions Reserve Fund. It is a minor point, to be honest, given what is happening. If the Government is taking €4 billion out of this fund and is not putting any payment into it this year and next year, what due diligence has been carried out on the effects of this on the National Pensions Reserve Fund? The Government is taking out a block of four years' payments to the National Pensions Reserve Fund plus there has been a decrease in the investment return of this fund because of what has happened internationally, and when the Government speaks of starting to get back on track in paying into this fund in 2011, it then will have approximately 14 years before this fund is supposed to start paying out on public sector pensions. Has due diligence been done on the effects of this legislation on the National Pensions Reserve Fund? That is a matter which has not been alluded to. I acknowledge we are in a difficult crisis, but when this fund was set up in 2000 it was quite clearly stated by the then Minister, Charlie McCreevy, that this was a serious issue and we needed to start building up the fund quickly to deal with public sector pensions. That is the first question I want the Minister of State to answer.

The sum of money involved is quite staggering. The Government is handing over to the banks all of the public sector pension levy, the legislation for which was passed last week, plus this money. The next issue we should look at is the banks. There is no confidence that we are being fully informed in the House about what is happening with the banks. In October last, the chief executive of AIB stated that the bank did not need this capital and was quite happy that it had enough capital within its banking system and that it would need no recapitalisation. Then there was the PricewaterhouseCoopers report which raised concerns about the level of indebtedness within all our major banks. That report was not published and therefore we do not know how serious those issues were. Now we are told that the National Pensions Reserve Fund will conduct its own due diligence on the banks to look at how stable they are from the point of view of handing over billions of taxpayers' money to recapitalise them and whether that will have any effect in the long term. Let us not forget the annual reports and how matters have changed from the public utterances coming from those banks.

I am not a bit surprised that international investors have lost confidence. If one was thinking about investing money in either of the two major banks, one would have got sorely burnt and been sorely disappointed with the information one would have been receiving in the public domain from those banks and from the Government in the past six months. Before we go pouring billions of taxpayers' money into this there is a need for more of this information to be made available to Members of this House.

Over recent weeks, as this crisis has got out of control, Government representatives have been desperately trying to tie the Opposition in to the decision-making process of the Government. I do not agree with that. There is a serious need at this stage for constructive opposition to what the Government may be doing because we are not really seeing the clarity and honesty one would expect from a Government which is acting in a financial and political crisis such as this. There is too much changing of the ground rules as matters move on when we know that the information that subsequently becomes public knowledge was already known by the Government, the bankers and the regulators involved.

There is a need for national honesty and confidence to be rebuilt in the Government, the banking system and the regulator. It is the loss of confidence on the part of people in the greater community which is making them angry and resentful towards what is happening here. This comes not only from the individuals paying the public sector pension levy but others who see vast sums of Government money going towards the banks, and yet at the same time they see little or no regret expressed by the banks for what they have done to the banking system.

The Minister of State should put much more stringent sections in this legislation covering bankers' salaries and the reductions that should be made in that regard. The fact that nobody is seen to be paying a price for obliterating our economy in such a short space of time is what is making the public extremely angry.

The Minister of State should also do something about senior Ministers who are still under the illusion it is 2003, when Ministers were flying in Air Corps helicopters to open off licences in the west of Ireland while their Garda drivers drove down in ministerial Mercedes to pick them up at their destination. I regret what happened to the Minister in Killarney, but when Ministers are still whizzing about in Air Corps helicopters and Government jets as this crisis unfolds before us, it shows they have no tact or are oblivious to the anger out there. Ministers should be a little more humble when carrying out their duties. The Minister gave a lame excuse for using the helicopter. If he could not make it to Killarney, there would have been another Minister nearby who could have deputised rather than making a round trip in an Air Corps helicopter to make a short speech there. The Government must listen to what is happening because people are getting angry about it.

The figures state that €1.6 billion is the 1% that is expected from the Government this year and allowed for in the budget. There is a figure of €1.4 billion as the 1% for next year. Does that mean the Department of Finance expects a serious regression in GNP next year? A decrease to €1.4 billion would indicate serious economic regression in 2010. Is there an expectation in the Department of Finance that things will get worse next year?

Will the Minister of State comment on the tax take, which will have a huge impact on the economy? In 2007, the tax take was €47 billion and the latest projections from the Department of Finance are that this will drop to €34 billion this year. Government expenditure, however, is not dramatically declining. That indicates that we are heading for massive budget deficits for the next three years. It will be almost impossible for us to make it back within the 3% figure in the European Union stability pact. That should be taken into account when we discuss recapitalisation of the banks. Throughout the legislation the Government acknowledges the possibility that far greater sums of money might need to be put into the banks to keep them afloat over the coming years, that the €7 billion is just the opening gambit rather than the total amount.