Martin Mansergh (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I thank Senators on all sides of the House for their contributions to this exceptionally constructive and stimulating debate. There are various formulae of words that can be used on such occasions but in everything I say, I try not to gloss over what I consider to be an exceptionally grave situation. Members will find reflections of this in my opening contribution. At the same time, one must not overlook the many strong positives remaining in this society and economy. We must look not only to fill holes but to find positive initiatives we can take to encourage economic activity and inspire people. Senator Harris made several suggestions in this regard. There are others, including those set out in the Government's framework document, Building Ireland's Smart Economy.

Although it would not be entirely accurate to describe it as a pension levy, the core of the Bill is what I would describe as a pension-related levy. It relates to the cost of pensions and the advantage enjoyed by public servants in this regard. For people who reach the end of their career at a senior level, in particular, we have seen striking examples of how advantageous are the pension arrangements. Broadly speaking, taking all deductions into account, the levy is progressive. The provisions of the Bill apply not only to public servants but also to professionals and the farming sector.

I heard an interesting radio interview this morning with a former Taoiseach, Mr. Garret FitzGerald, which dealt with some of the issues which the various political parties might not necessarily wish to stress. Mr. FitzGerald made the valid point that our tax system is exceptionally favourable by European standards to low and middle-income earners, which is fine when revenue is flowing in through stamp duty, corporation tax and capital taxes. We have all benefited from this in the past, but we are now in a situation where we must broaden the tax base.

One of the threads that underlined Senator Harris's contribution and those of several other Members was the question of whether all the pain should be imposed in one fell swoop or whether it should be spread out. I am of the view that no matter how virtuous we had been in the past, economically speaking, and no matter how ruthless we might be now in terms of doing anything and everything to try to close the gap in short order, we could not get out of the woods in a short timeframe. We are dealing not only with a national problem but with a global one. I understand Senator Harris's frustration and what he said about the psyche in terms of appealing to public opinion, with all of which I agree. However, in substance, would it achieve the aim of getting us out of the woods? I contend it would not. No country is even close to getting out of the woods at the moment. I have never had anything to do with the Judiciary, but whether one is a member of the Judiciary or the Legislature, we come from a particular standpoint and, to a limited degree, we have self-interests and one must make corrections for that. While there are Oireachtas Members of various ages who may be under financial pressure, we are not the section of the community under the most financial pressure at present. There are large sections of the community that would be in no position to bear that and we must proceed by stages. As quickly as we can, through the Commission on Taxation, the McCarthy committee and other mechanisms, we must define where we are going and what we must do. The case of those who were protesting outside the gates could not be summarised as suggesting that the Government is not hitting them half hard enough. They may be saying that there are certain sections of society, perhaps a relatively small number of people, that are not being hit hard enough. The Government may be right or wrong but it has taken the view that we must pace ourselves. This crisis will not be over in the short term, regardless of what we do. We must pace ourselves, try to contain the situation and correct the situation. This is an important part of what we are doing. It is important to the minimum confidence that we need to pass and enact this legislation.

Once that has happened, I hope it will be possible to get around the table with the social partners and discuss the broad framework further. It is not the view of everyone in this House but, broadly speaking, social partnership has served the country very well. I do not want to accuse the Government of which I am a member of being unreasonable but it was a bridge too far to expect the unions to underwrite something like the pension levy. They must make their protest; the Government must do what it must do. I want to see the social partners continue to engage. That is one reason, among others, that I do not follow the suggestion made by Senator Ross about privatising ESB and Bord Gáis. I like the idea of public service and I defended it in the other House too. We should not abandon the ethos of that but I should abandon speaking further because the Cathaoirleach is looking at me.