Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I will begin with one figure, that is, one out of ten. Every member of the Government should listen to the news tonight and examine the results of the opinion poll tomorrow because we have clearly failed to make it known across the floor that the Government measures are neither understood, accepted nor supported by the vast majority of people. It seems desperately useless, therefore, for Members to blame the Opposition parties and others for this. Can someone explain to me how nine out of ten people could be wrong? It reminds me of Abraham Lincoln's statement that one can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time. It just does not work and the reality is very simple.

I hear Members state every day they are not receiving support from the Opposition, mainly Fine Gael. When did the Government speak to Fine Gael? When did it indicate the problem and its proposals to Fine Gael and request the party's views? It seems Fine Gael is more than ready to offer support. The same applies to the social partners, who do not know what the Government wants. They were in the middle of negotiations with the Government that began with a phrase to the effect that all sectors of society should contribute in accordance with their ability to do so, and that the most vulnerable, low-paid etc. should be insulated against the worst effects. People said this was a very fair way to start and that they should get down to business. I listened to Senator Boyle talking about people not understanding the issues. How can the people outside the gate today understand why the wealthy people in the private sector are not being taxed?

I want the Minster of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to think about my next question. I do not want him to respond because he will not give me the answer. The people on strike today and others know about the private sector because they have sons, daughters, wives and husbands who have lost jobs and who have taken salary cuts, but they also know that more than half of the 1.3 million private sector employees are in safe, secure, comfortable jobs. That is the reality and if I am wrong I will eat my hat. If somebody can give me figures to show I am even partially wrong, I will do so. My question is whether we cannot introduce a tax such that everybody earning over €80,000 or €90,000 per annum, in both the public and private sectors, would be subject to a new third rate of taxation. Why will the Government not do so? The reason is very clear — there is extraordinary dishonesty such that the Government will not use the word "taxation". Its members cannot get it out of their mouths and they use the terms "income levy" and "pension levy". It is a misnomer to refer to the proposed measure as a levy because the moneys that accrue will not go towards paying pensions but into the Exchequer.

I know a little about what I am talking because I sat for five years on the Commission on Public Service Pensions, which was referred to by the Minister of State's colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Mansergh. The reality is that we did value it and get a costing on it. We also required that it would be actuarially adjusted. At that time it was felt that the cost of public sector pensions was approximately 18%. Nowadays they are saying it is approximately 25%. If one takes the normal employers' contribution of 10% out of it then we know what we should put in to pay for it. We can come to those figures.

Society is fragmented because nobody knows what the Government is doing. Currently, one person in ten supports the Government. That is the lowest figure in my time in politics and I am sure in the time of the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern. If the Government will not listen to me it should listen to the people.