Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)

I thank Members for their constructive comments. We had a good discussion. It is evident that people wish Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann well and that they would like to see a greater use of public transport.

Senator Donohoe referred to the danger of a hammer blow in the event of a strike. Today we are discussing the Deloitte & Touche report and the strike relates to day-to-day public transport operations. The subvention is at a very high level but there are financial problems in Dublin Bus because of reduced passenger numbers and increased costs. The company has to meet that challenge in the same way as any other organisation. This year the subvention for Dublin Bus is approximately €125 million and it is more than €300 million for the CIE group of companies this year. The subvention is at its highest level but, obviously, Dublin Bus would like it to be higher.

Meetings are taking place at the Labour Relations Commission today and it is for the companies to work out matters through the industrial relations process with the unions. I hope they can do business. I agree strikes do not achieve anything and it would be better if both sides could work things out. I fully agree with Senator Ryan's suggestion that companies should consult people below management level. That is a good idea. Nobody has a patent on good ideas. Many workers in Dublin Bus and elsewhere have good suggestions and ideas about how to run everything on a proper basis. We are in a new world and times are difficult and different. Many workers realise circumstances have changed and people must give a little. Sometimes workers are more understanding of the realities than managers. If everyone is reasonable, I hope there will not be a strike but that is for the relevant parties to work out. Sooner or later they will have to do this and, therefore, they might as well do it before the workers strike.

Senator Donohoe asked why a review was not conducted previously. Dublin Bus says it was, but it was not implemented fully. Equally, public representatives have been blamed occasionally where the company had proposals to amalgamate services and amend routes. People at different levels as well as public representatives, together with local community groups, might have lobbied against proposals by Dublin Bus. Occasionally, the company puts that forward as a partial excuse.

I refer to the Finglas route highlighted in the report. Amalgamations and linkages are proposed but a number of the new routes could not have been put in place ten years ago because they serve housing estates that were not built at the time. One route serves Hampton Wood, Charlestown, Lanesborough, Macetown and Meekstown in north-west Dublin where between 3,000 and 4,000 houses and apartments were built in the past few years. The bus route goes through Finglas into the city centre. That could have not happened ten years ago because the houses had not been built.

However, in many cases routes are fundamentally the same and when new housing estates were built, two stops were added to the end of routes and the company did not adjust them. The view is that the company did not take a fundamental look at bus routes, and now might be the time to do so. Timing is important with everything. Senator Ryan asked why a consultant was needed because everything he came up with is based on common sense and everyone knew this, but if everyone knew this, it did not happen previously. Actions are often proposed but they do not happen because the timing and the other ingredients needed are not right. This might be the time to examine the issue more deeply, as people realise funding is not limitless.

It is a difficult set-up and Senator Donohoe referred to reliability measures, which are debatable. It is more difficult to adopt such measures on public roads compared to, for example, a railway track where everything is under the company's control and such measures are easier to employ in theory. I do not excuse Dublin Bus, but traffic is an issue on a public road, policing comes under the Garda, the roads are managed by the local authority and other motorists use the roads. Even with investment in bus lanes, it is difficult for bus companies to operate. When buses arrive in bunches, it drives everybody nuts because they have waited 25 minutes for a service, but it is a complicated business. At the same time, the Senator stated that subvention payments are linked to memoranda of understanding with the companies on the basis that they meet targets relating to mileage, hours of service and so on. The money was not lashed out willy-nilly. Reliability measures and other standards relating to what should be achieved might be laid down but, unfortunately, they are not as easy to implement as we would like.

A number of members, including Senator O'Donovan, mentioned integrated ticketing and I do not deny it has been debated for a long time but progress is being made. The CIE companies launch interim smart cards towards the end of this year and next year. IBM was appointed last year to build the back office computer system and it is hoped the full roll-out of real time passenger information will be completed by 2011. That is currently one of the problems with the DART and Luas. While one reads the timetable, it is sometimes a work of fiction. It outlines the services scheduled and planned but they are not provided sometimes and, therefore, proper real time information is needed so that customers can have a greater belief that the service they expect will be delivered.

Dublin Bus is introducing an automatic vehicle location measure. Every bus will have a gadget that will signal its location and this, in turn, will provide real time information at bus stops, which will be updated, as necessary. It will never be perfect because even if the bus is only 100 yards from a stop, it could still be delayed. However, the system will be programmed with information about how long it takes to travel, for example, from Parnell Street to College Green at different times of the day. If real time information was provided at bus stops and linked to the smart card system, commuters would be able to move between services more freely, which is the ultimate aim. This would provide for the DART, Luas, metro and bus services to be linked.

Senator O'Donovan raised the issue of the metro. The oral hearing for the railway order, which concerns planning permission, will commence next week. Hopefully, it will remain on schedule, subject to the railway order application. The final say so will be given when the cost of the project is finalised. It will be part funded by the Exchequer and a PPP will be pursued. Four major companies are working on a price and, hopefully, a good price will be achieved. Some commentators will say times are difficult and large projects such as this should not be undertaken, but this is the time to do it and I sincerely hope it is undertaken. Fewer people are at work, which means fewer people are using buses and the M50, for example, which means it is easier to move around to do one's business. If major capital works are to be undertaken in the city centre, it is better to do them when business is quieter than when it is hectic.

A number of Members said that even if subvention to the bus companies amounts to €300 million a year, it is still much lower than in other countries. However, I referred to the number of new buses bought by Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann through Government funding in recent years. Other countries might have a better subvention system but buses are never supplied by the Government. The subvention might be more generous but the bus companies have to replace and purchase news buses themselves. One should watch out when considering international subvention statistics. It is important to realise that it is sometimes a case of apples and oranges in that one may not be comparing like with like. While I accept the general principle and am not suggesting that Ireland has the highest subvention levels in Europe, since we certainly do not, we must be careful concerning what we are considering.

Senator Boyle referred to the mindset, in that a number of people view public transport as the poor relation. Unfortunately, this contains a degree of truth. The Luas and DART are labelled as good services, but I accept that there is a bit of an attitude. Despite how much CIE and Dublin Bus have done over the years, they have not been able to change how people think. While it is sometimes the case that the bus companies and staff need to realise that they must be nice to their customers, that the customer is king and that the customer is god, the real issue is the question of service reliability. Had we real-time information to let people know when buses are due and were four or five buses not to arrive together, people might feel better about it.

While the ongoing subvention problems and Dublin Bus's management of its funds are issues, the report concerns existing resources, how to improve the service, how to sharpen up on some routes, whether they reflect people's movements, whether life and age profiles in certain suburbs have changed, for example, whether there are more pensioners in the area, and whether the same number of buses are required at 7.45 a.m. as were needed 20 years ago. During the morning, commuters will walk five or seven minutes to a service if they know where it is and that it is reliable. An older clientele does not need a bus every five minutes, but the elderly want to be sure that the 11 a.m. bus will arrive on time. They also want it closer to their homes. Different age groups, time periods and parts of the city have different requirements. Some bus routes are more or less the way they were 20 years ago. They have not adjusted to the fact that aspects of life have moved on.

Several Senators referred to real-time information and integrated ticketing. Senator Burke referred to the need for a single large bus station, but I am unsure. It was discussed a number of years ago, but I do not know whether we want to revert to it, including the plans for Bachelor's Walk and so on. Since so many routes enter Dublin city, the Senator's suggestion is not the plan at this stage. It was planned for Temple Bar, but life has moved on.

I note Senator Corrigan's comments on switching vehicles, in which there is some truth irrespective of whether a study has been done that backs them up. The theory is that someone who gets on a bus in Finglas west and who is dropped off in the village will switch to another bus and, hey presto, head off. It is a question of reliability, as such a switch would not be a big deal if the bus arrived in Stillorgan or Finglas on time. People are worried they will spend seven minutes in the rain at a bus stop and then spend another ten or 15 minutes in the village. Were the service reliable, jumping from bus to bus would not be a big deal, but people do not want to be left standing for 15 minutes or sitting in a bus on Parnell Square or wherever while a driver goes for dinner or tea.