Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Devins. This is a timely debate and I am glad of the opportunity to participate in it.

As previous speakers indicated, these are difficult times globally and nationally. Every sector of the economy, including that relating to education, is suffering. Difficult decisions will have to be made by the Department of Education and Science and every other Department this year, next year and for the foreseeable future. However, the education sector is operating from a good base. The investment that has been made in education during the past ten years has created a platform that will allow us to absorb the blows that will rain down upon us in the coming years.

During the past decade investment in education trebled, the schools buildings programme increased fivefold and the school transport and primary capitation budgets trebled. If this had not happened, we would be in a much more difficult position as regards education and we would not be able to deal with the difficulties we face. The investment to which I refer brought about a 25% increase in the number of 17 to 19 year olds in higher education in the period 1998 to 2004. In addition, there was a major rise in the number of people from less well-off socio-economic groups pursuing higher education courses. A significant investment was also made with regard to the provision of education facilities for the disadvantaged and those with special needs. I am delighted the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, indicated that this level of investment will continue because we must ensure that in times of recession, priority is always given to those with special needs. We must continue the good work that has been done during the past ten years or so.

There has also been a major improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio. I say this with some trepidation because it was disappointing to see the reversal of a long-established trend in the current allocations announced in the budget. We have been obliged to take a step back, a matter about which I, with a background in education, was particularly disappointed. For many teachers and educators, the pupil-teacher ratio is the priority. However, people are beginning to understand that nothing is sacred anymore. I hope that in the future we will be able to make savings and achieve economies in the area of education without a need to interfere further with the pupil-teacher ratio. That ratio is paramount, particularly at primary level. Investment in education at primary level must be everyone's priority. It certainly is my priority and I hope pupil-teacher ratios will remain as they now stand and that there will not be any further disimprovement in respect of them.

Many teachers become upset when they are informed about the pupil-teacher ratio in their schools. This is especially the case for mainstream teachers who must still deal with large numbers of students in their regular classes. There is a need to take into account the position of special needs teachers, those who teach Travellers etc. I hope that we will be able to sustain the figures in this regard in the future. In my view, however, the real pupil-teacher ratio relates to individual teachers and their mainstream classes. This is the yardstick that should be used when we are discussing matters of this nature.

People, particularly politicians, do not wish to offer ways of saving money. However, everyone should be prepared to arrive at ideas in this regard. We will not be able to continue to invest the same amounts of money in education that we did during the past decade. Where might savings be made or economies achieved? I made the case that I would have preferred the pupil-teacher ratio to remain — at the expense of the capital programme — at the level at which it stood prior to the budget. I put this argument forward at a meeting of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party and I was lucky to get out the door in one piece. Every parish priest is in favour of his building programme and I received a number of irate letters from some in my county in that regard. While I accept that a balance must be struck, I stand over my assertion that the pupil-teacher ratio is more important than bricks and mortar.

Some 20 years ago, most towns would have had one or, at most, two primary schools. There would have been a national school for boys and probably a convent primary school. In the smaller towns, there would have been only one national school. Now, however, there are two or three national or primary schools in most towns. There may be a gaelscoil or a non-denominational school in these towns. Can we afford to continue with this duplication of educational provision? The Minister will be obliged to deal with this difficult question.

I refer to this matter in the context of having a local authority background and of being aware of the difficulties associated with very well-meaning pressure groups establishing schools in small portakabins at the side of the road. When such schools are set up, a traffic warden must be appointed and the road has to be upgraded. This is followed by pressure for a new school building on a greenfield site or for the building at the existing site to be improved. The Government makes this kind of infrastructural investment at a major cost.

There was nothing much wrong with the type of education provided at the national schools I attended in the 1950s and 1960s. If one took a straw poll, one would discover that many other people would support my view and would ask whether there is a need for all the specialised education with which children are being provided. As a result of what I have said, I probably will be inundated by representations from those in favour of non-denominational education. I have nothing against those individuals and I support the great work being done by the gaelscoileanna, but we must reconsider this issue in order to discover how the best value for money might be obtained.

At second level, the position is similar. In a particular town there might be a Christian Brothers' school, a convent school and a local community college, and each operates on the basis that the other two almost do not exist. I was delighted that the Minister established a review body to consider the provision of second level education in my area, north Kerry. The report of this review body, which was chaired by Mr. Frank Murray, who comes from the same town as me and who is an eminent educator, was recently submitted to the Minister. I hope this report will provide a blueprint in the context of examining how education in other areas might be rationalised. If schools can co-operate and, in certain instances, amalgamate, there would be a cost saving and probably an overall improvement in educational provision.

Duplication also occurs in the area of lifelong education in the context of the provision made by community colleges, VECs and FÁS. The Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy Haughey, who has just entered the Chamber has done fantastic work in the areas of second-chance and lifelong education. The Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, visited my town, Listowel, last week — the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, did so last year — to present awards to post-leaving certificate students and others. He was impressed by what occurred at the event to which I refer.

The courses in respect of which the awards to which I refer were presented were identified, in the first instance, by the principal of the local community college and his staff while working in conjunction with the local Leader group, North Kerry Together. Those involved identified the skills that were in short supply in the area and then developed the courses to be offered with that in mind. They also ensured that there would be a possibility for those who pursued such courses to move on to third level. This is an example of the various sectors in a community working together. If we are to continue to invest in lifelong education, why not concentrate our efforts on local VEC schools? Students would not need to travel and the buildings, teaching resources and expertise are in place. A clear distinction must be made between the valuable service provided by FÁS and what could be best provided in current school structures.

The Government should reconsider the cap on the number of places in PLC and VTOS courses, especially in new economy areas. Last year in County Kerry a significant number of additional students could have been taken if numbers had not been capped.

To turn to another of my hobby horses, do we need two awarding bodies, FETAC and HETAC? The country needs to make savings. In addition, leaving certificate courses should be reassessed. In this respect, the Minister has shown the way by introducing a project on mathematics.

The Roman statesman, Cato, hated the city of Carthage and used to conclude every speech with the words "Carthago delenda est", meaning "Carthage must be destroyed". He finally got his way. Since entering the Seanad, I have mentioned Drumclogh national school in every speech I have made. I appeal to the Minister to take action to ensure renovations proceed or work on badly needed new buildings commences.