Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)

I have found the contributions so far from both sides of the House very helpful. A common thread has run through most of the contributions, which helps to underline our realisation that democracy is a very precious concept, although the implementation of democracy can be very delicate at times.

There is a fair degree of unanimity on the Electoral (Amendment) Bill, which reminds us of the various levels of democracy as they operate in the different councils, the Oireachtas, the European Parliament and so on. We are particularly fortunate, if one considers local authorities for example, with the amount of media coverage by local newspapers and radio. At that level, one is very much at the coalface. I recall sitting on Cashel Urban District Council and on the night of an estimates meeting I would hardly be outside the front door when the locals would be waiting to discuss what happened inside. That is how close we would be to the operation of the system.

In those days there was very little money and not much of the debate would deal with anything except how to keep the ship floating and how to survive. I have one anecdote in this regard. I recall going to a particular county in later years and meeting the county manager on the day a large project was being officially opened. I went to say "hello" because the person had formerly been the town clerk in Cashel. I told him things had come a long way since he was in Cashel as we looked at the multi-million euro development we were celebrating. He said he would tell me how much it had changed with a story of how he was working on the estimates and wanted to buy a small calculator. He went to the chairman, a businessman, to see if he could buy one. The chairman said that a calculator should not be bought, and the man in question could have the use of one in his shop. A calculator may have been £3 or £4. We all know exactly how much we have changed in the intervening years.

As a result of this one must look at the system and consider how to adapt it and what is currently required. I have always believed that the essence of democracy is where the elected members have the maximum input into what is happening in policies, expenditure and so on. With the County Management Act, certain restrictions were brought in and some were understandable. Like any corporate business, there had to be a professional input.

I have always believed that local councillors in particular bring with them significant expertise and have an ear to the ground. They know the consensus in the community and often they are so wise that they would even be ahead of the professional input. Whatever happens in the reorganisation of local authorities, I would like to think we will always see the member as being paramount. After all, the member must go back to face the electorate and take responsibility for decisions. It is the greatest test of all.

When people speak of accountability, in how many walks of life does a person put himself or herself back before an electorate indicating what has been done and asking whether the people are satisfied to re-elect that person? That is precisely what happens with local authorities so I would not like to see the role of members being diminished or sidelined.

We must be careful about any kind of a populist caricature of local authority members. This is unfair in the main and one can see this if one takes time out to see the amount of work put into a local authority. I know business people in my area who gave more time to the local authority than they gave to their businesses. One cannot buy that sort of input so we must be careful not to respond to a kind of contrived lobby each time somebody wants to have a go, as it were, at local councillors. I hope that whatever happens, we will strengthen, consolidate and copperfasten the position of local councillors.

Senator John Ellis has very strong views on the issue of the geographic identity of constituencies, which is very understandable. I find much the same views coming across from the other side and the Cathaoirleach is probably aware of what is happening vis-À-vis Offaly and north Tipperary and the crisis of identity there. I know of this because I have spoken to relatives in that part of the country. There is a belief that the problem is superficial or there is no hurt as a result but this is wrong. People are shocked by the identity they had being taken from them.

We must balance the numerical notion of how many people are to elect a single member of a statutory forum with the tradition of an area. County Leitrim played a major role in the War of Independence and the development of the State. As a small county, it also provided a lead in the development of the tourism industry. There are many issues which should be taken into account in the context of Leitrim's proximity to the North of Ireland. I do not wish to take from the work of the commission but it is impossible to justify the removal of a county's identity.

As Members are aware, people's loyalty to their counties is probably the strongest form of loyalty across which one will come. Regardless of whether it be in the context of sport, the Tidy Towns competition or whatever, the county is the identifiable geographic entity. This matter must be revisited and county boundaries must be maintained. Even if a degree of slippage occurs in the context of numbers, I do not see the problem. This will be compensated for in other ways. I do not believe the numbers are sacrosanct or written in stone. There must be flexibility so that social, cultural and other aspects are taken into account in the interests of maintaining the identity of a county.

The terms of reference must be considered in a clearer way. We have a major advantage in respect of this matter. If only one political party was arguing in favour of this, matters would be extremely difficult. However, there has been a cross-party response on this issue because Members are receiving representations from their constituents and others in respect of it. If one talks to those who are to all intents and purposes disenfranchised, one will discover that they are of the view that they will never vote again because they are not part of the system.

This happened previously when constituencies in our cities were redrawn. The position with regard to cities is somewhat different because the communities there may be fragmented or only recently devised. However, even in cities, the response to which I refer would be forthcoming. In the rural or provincial setting, that response can be extreme.

I hope this matter can be revisited as a matter of urgency. If this is not done, we will merely diminish the democratic system by failing to take into account the many variables that exist in the many constituencies.

The suggestion that the voting age should be reduced to 16 is worthy of debate. Young people are very much to the fore at present. Unfortunately, however, there is not as much interest on the part of young people in the electoral system or in the workings of democracy as we would like. When we were their age, we would have had a greater interest in this area. Any mechanism that might be used to bring them back into the loop is important. As already stated, society is changing and we must be in a position to respond in this regard.

The concept of public representation has taken somewhat of a battering, but only as a result of isolated incidents or particular scandals. However, 99% of the time our system is well served by public representatives with diverse views. There is nothing wrong with being critical of public representatives. However, it behoves those who engage in such criticism to try to be fair. Such criticism must be fair because if we damage the body politic or undermine it in a general rather than a specific way, we do harm to ourselves in the process, especially in a competitive world.

I hope there will be a greater understanding among people of the work of public representatives, their responsibilities and the transparency, accountability, etc. attaching thereto. If the Electoral (Amendment) Bill makes a contribution to the process in that regard, then it represents a step in the right direction.