Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I welcome the Minister to the House and I express my respect for his keen interest in local and national democracy. It has been very helpful that he has offered views on it regularly since his appointment as Minister. I very much agree with the comments made by the previous speaker. I am very concerned about the shift eastwards of the representatives in Dáil Éireann. There is a problem there. I do not disagree with what the Minister said in his speech. I recognise and accept what is in the Constitution. However, I believe representation should be based not just on population, but also on geography. While I accept that would require a constitutional amendment, I would like to have a debate on it.

I believe I have heard the Minister say that county boundaries should be kept and we should stick with those to some extent. I am not sure I would agree because the shift in population might overrule that and counties could be left with their boundaries intact but without representation. We need a combination of both, which meets the point the Minister is making and the other points made about it.

It is appalling that in my time in politics places like Mayo, Leitrim, Kerry, Limerick, Monaghan and others have lost representation which is moving to the east coast. That will result in an imbalance that will be contrary to the philosophy of the Minister's party, if I may say so. Although he is an urban Deputy, I am sure he knows the point I am making about the importance of regionalisation and regional representation. There is a rational argument to be made along those lines.

The Constituency Commission bottled it in the sense that it could have increased the number of Deputies. The reason it did not do so is because it is afraid of the media. I will give a good example of why that should be faced up to. It is either a good idea or a bad idea and let us talk to reasonable people about it. If people believe we have too many Deputies, to get rid of that argument once and for all, the Minister should have a referendum in every county to ascertain how many counties want to lose a Deputy. We can then ask the question as to whether the number of Deputies should be reduced. That will finish that argument.

There were appalling reports yesterday by media people, who should know better, informing the population that only two or three people were sitting in the Dáil Chamber for a debate. There is a very simple answer to that. By the way there was only one person in the Press Gallery. What were the journalists doing? All 36 of them are being paid in here. They were not in there at all. In reality the members of the press, like Members of the Houses, were watching it in their offices. They were doing work, watching it on television monitors and coming in when their speaking time was allocated to them. It would have been a total waste of time to have them sitting in the Dáil Chamber listening to the debate if they could not make a contribution, which they would subsequently make in their own time. That is not a difficult message to get across to people. I am not saying that cynical people will accept that, but ordinary people need to hear that message. I ask the Minister to examine this issue. Some counties, particularly in the west, will lose their voice in national politics.

The Minister referred to local democracy and stated he would bring forward introduce legislation. I look forward to reading the White Paper in the next few weeks. I would like him to indicate the date of its launch, rather than saying it will be in a few weeks. Two issues concern me with regard to look democracy, one of which relates to my home town of Dingle and which I will not raise now. The other relates to respect and funding for local democracy, even if it means bringing back local charges. We must give power to local democracy, which means spending money. People must see the money they are contributing being spent in their area for their good by those they elect to represent them. People will gravitate towards direct mayoral elections, which should not be restricted to a couple of large cities. Local democracy is enhanced all over Europe by the fact that in small towns and villages people of significance are honoured and respected because they will run for mayor.

The Minister should press ahead with Seanad reform. There is a cynical view that many of us who call for such reform are not really looking for it. We want this done. I understand the difficulties of the Independent Senators and those elected through panels but let us find a way forward. The Minister should give us enough time to do so. As long as we take irrevocable decisions, I am not opposed to allowing colleagues a full electoral period to adjust; therefore, the necessary changes would not have to come into operation until after the next election.

I wished the Minister well with the White Paper on local government and the subsequent legislation. I have also referred to the need for a geographical element in the determination of Dáil representation and the need for Seanad reform.