Shane Ross (Independent)

I thank Senator O'Toole for sharing his time with me. The idea of a recovery bond, which has just been mentioned, is an imaginative one. That is the way we should be thinking but the Minister of State's speech, and that of Senator MacSharry, was somewhat calm, lacking in urgency and, to a great extent, too complacent.

The Minister of State should read the article on bonds in today's Financial Times. I am not talking about British Paddy bashing, which has been going on recently. I am looking at the spreads on ten year government bonds. Out of 21 countries, Ireland is 20th. It is just cheaper for Ireland to borrow than Greece, and that gap has been closing rapidly in recent days. That tells us that the international money markets have lost confidence in Ireland Inc. and in the Irish Government. The people who make these markets do not have some sort of prejudice against this country. These are people who make cold, forensic judgments about what is going on in this country and whether they should lend it money. They are saying specifically, and they are saying it much more so in the past three days, that Ireland is at risk and is a big risk. I do not know whether it has overtaken Greece today but to be honest about it, Greece is not the sort of company we want to be keeping. In terms of the others, which are known as the PIGS countries, as the Minister of State will be aware — Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain — we are far higher in terms of borrowing than those, bar Greece. The international markets have made a judgment on us which is damning. The signal coming out from there, and I say this as one who has supported Government finance policy for many years, is that the Government here is not capable and is not going to produce measures which are adequate to satisfy the markets.

It was the Irish Commissioner, a former Minister for Finance, who said in the Merrion Hotel some weeks ago that we had better realise that we cannot keep ratcheting up the national debt by €2 billion, €10 billion or whatever because there may be no one who will lend to us. That is the problem we are facing today, and the lack of urgency in the Minister of State's speech is part of that problem.

I was shattered to hear the Taoiseach say this morning that he may be able to further postpone a deal. I do not know what sort of a financial world the Department of Finance and the Department of the Taoiseach are living in because every day this happens, the cost of borrowing goes up. The Minister of State can examine the figures. It has happened in the past week. Every day there is a delay, it will cost millions of euro more in interest payments and in the cost of borrowing to the taxpayer. We will be making false economies if we just keep talking and pretend it will go right because the cost of borrowing is increasing.

There is no confidence in the international markets about what is happening in Ireland. There is a great deal of disappointment. I share Senator O'Toole's view, but even more so those from the Fine Gael benches because I have been saying it for years about the extraordinary way the Government goes to the social partners before it comes to this House. This House has never been consulted on any pay deal. I do not know why people are suddenly becoming converted to this now in a time of crisis. This House has been ignored, as has the Dáil, while the important decisions on the economy have been made elsewhere. The reality is that the Minister of State cannot tell us anything about anything in his speech except that the Government is monitoring this and discussing that. He used those words frequently. He is discussing it while the place is going up in flames. It is long past time for decisions.

Senator O'Toole referred to IBEC, and I agree with every word he said, but IBEC does not matter. It is a convenient foil for the unions to engage in a little bit of drama to rally the troops, and everyone needs that in this sort of situation. IBEC does not care two hoots what people say. Everyone knows that. It has got nothing to fight with. The people who matter are the public service unions.

There is no doubt a deal will be done by the public service unions but the danger is that it is dictated by the public service unions and not by the Government. We only have to look back to the last deal in the autumn — I have forgotten the month — which is now about to be scrapped because the Government capitulated and gave them what they wanted. They are now so embarrassed by what they got they are now saying they will give back something to the Government in the national interest.

Social partnership may or may not have served us well. I do not want to go back over that argument. It is a fairly stupid one and it cannot be proved either way. We know, however, that it did not save us from the circumstances in which we find ourselves and we are making the same mistake again. I hope the Minister and others do not appear in Dublin Castle in two weeks to tell the world, as they did a few months ago, what a great triumph they have achieved. This is not the way the finances of the country should be run and it does not fool the international markets.

In terms of other cuts in public expenditure, I plead that a hatchet be ruthlessly taken to State and semi-State agencies. The waste of taxpayers' money in these bodies which I could spell out if I had time is criminal. It would be utterly wrong to deprive education, health and other areas of vital importance when such unforgivable waste is permitted in semi-State bodies. It is there for the taking if there was the political will to do it.