Liam Twomey (Fine Gael)

There is no need for the Minister to nod at us as if we are being stupid and annoying him. These are the sort of figures he should be giving to both Houses.

Sections 22 to 32 deal with compensation for shareholders. It was interesting to hear the Minister discuss this issue in the Lower House. He said the shareholders will be entitled to know what value the assessor, and by extension the Minister, puts on Anglo Irish Bank. The shareholders who will have shares taken off them at this time will get to know what is happening, yet the Minister is hiding the PricewaterhouseCoopers report from us. The taxpayer is expected to pay for everything. What is happening with regard to the shareholders? What is the Minister's gut feeling on this question? Are the shares in Anglo Irish Bank worth nothing? It would be an interesting debate given that we have nationalised the bank.

There are probably ten or 20 people within Anglo Irish Bank who seem to have been responsible for causing the crisis within that bank. Many of those were the very same people who were trying to buy that bank over a period of months. While it is not fair to mention names, one person in particular attempted to buy 25% of the bank and he has ended up with 15% of the bank. The Minister might tell us where the other 10% of that share ownership went at that time, and what that person did with that 10% if he only took up 15%.

What I have noticed in the speeches from the Minister for Finance and other Ministers is that none of them suggests that Anglo Irish Bank would be insolvent or would have collapsed on 16 January if the Government had not stepped in. Given what the Minister is saying with regard to the assessor, this provides an opening to put a value on those shares and, therefore, the taxpayer could potentially pay out a substantial amount of money for those shares in the future. The Minister might comment on what the Government felt would happen if it had not stepped in on 16 January. Would this bank have folded and is there a value in regard to the shares? Perhaps there would be no need for sections 22 to 32 and all those rules regarding the assessor if there was no hope for this bank to survive.

This is the sort of question that leaves a certain stench of corruption around this matter. There is a sense of unease from our side of the House that this could turn out to be another Goodman-type scenario. What happened in the Goodman case was that while it saved the industry at the time, it had huge benefits for a few individuals. I do not believe the taxpayer wants to see the same happening in this case. When the dust settles on this matter and the Government owns the bank, one could see a number of shareholders recovering a huge amount of the money they otherwise would never have seen again. One could see huge write-offs for some individuals in regard to the loans they made to Anglo Irish Bank, which the Government would take up, and they would be able to continue trading.

There was unbelievable trading in Anglo Irish Bank. The fact the CEO and some directors could loan themselves hundreds of millions of euro is unbelievable. That people who were borrowing money from the bank were using that borrowed money to buy the bank, and that the same individuals were borrowing money from businesses they were running to buy the bank, sounds like something one would read in a comic book.

What would happen if a major health insurance company or motor insurance company went broke because of the activities of these individuals? It would not be those individuals who would suffer the most. Those who would pay the worst price would be the people who have their businesses, properties and cars insured with those individuals. Although there has been much criticism in both Houses that the Minister is rushing this through and not giving us adequate scope to discuss the issue, there is unease about what could have happened to Anglo Irish Bank.

Is there another way around this problem? Will the taxpayer be stung in regard to the shareholdings in time to come? The greatest fear held by some people is that the bank has become Banco Fianna Fáil and perhaps the Minister can do something about that now. The Minister can influence the situation.

Senator White should not be so dismissive. It is very easy for Ministers and those appointed by the Government to write off debts of individuals who are well known in the tent at Ballybrit and who were welcome there. That possibility still exists with the present set-up. I realise there may have been some exaggeration and in some cases people might say we are hyping the matter, but great concerns remain about the way the legislation is being passed in the House, about the protection for the taxpayer and especially about how much this could cost. If the PricewaterhouseCoopers estimate of the bad loans is wrong there could be substantial exposure for taxpayers in years to come. The Minister should now give us that information as we have nationalised the bank and it is protected.