Joe O'Toole (Independent)

The statement by the Senator to which I refer was made on the night on which the Seanad debated the budget. Senator Feeney knows me long enough to be aware that I would never put words in her mouth. I will communicate further with her in respect of this matter and if I am incorrect with regard to what she said, I will withdraw my remarks. However, I do not believe that I am incorrect.

The cost to the State of medical cards for the over 70s was €650 per person per year. The concept behind the Bill is to reduce that cost. If a person offered to pay the State €650 per year, could he or she effectively buy a medical card as a result? A visit to one's GP costs €40 or €50, so the €650 would pay for a number of such visits each year. However, if the Government received that money up front, people would be covered in respect of the various treatments to which a medical card would entitle them. In addition, they would visit their doctors when it was necessary for them to do so and would not worry about the cost or the need to save money by not making such visits. If they paid the money directly, it would almost provide them with a form of insurance. Will the Minister of State comment on this matter?

On universal access, the arguments put forward by those on the Government benches with regard to millionaires receiving medical cards are spurious. No one on this side of the House is of the view that millionaires should be entitled to medical cards. However, when I worked as a school principal, I never prevented millionaires — if there were any around at the time — from enrolling their children at my school. I do not know of any other principals who would have prevented such children from being enrolled. We were of the view that there are certain things to which people, as members of society, are entitled and one of these is education, to which there should be universal access.

Universal access already exists in certain areas of our lives. Such access should also apply in respect of health services for those who are over 70. It is not a question of millionaires taking advantage of the system. If a millionaire wants to buy something for himself or herself, he or she is free to do so. In a society which operates on the basis of equity, a platform should be provided to all citizens in this regard. That is the basis of universal access and the way it is paid for is through taxation. If someone pays his or her taxes in this country, then he or she should have an entitlement.

There are other further issues relating to the net and gross position that I would like the Minister of State to explain. What, for example, will be the position of people who receive lump sums on retirement? A person who is on the borderline as regards the threshold would be better off spending their entire lump sum. We are forcing people to do things which run completely contrary to all that we advised them to do previously. The approach in respect of this matter has not been thought through.

On many previous occasions I referred to the question of numbers. I will not argue with the Minister of State in respect of this matter but nonetheless I wish to highlight it. On the first occasion we ever obtained figures from the Department, they were given in reply to a question about the number of people who were then working in the health service. The figure with which we were provided was out by some 25,000. It was stated that there were 90,000 employees in the health service when in reality the figure was approximately 115,000.

On the next occasion we obtained figures relating to the health service it was in reply to a query regarding the number of people over 70 who would be entitled to medical cards. I do not need to revisit that debacle with the exception of stating that we never received a final indication as to the number of people who would be so entitled. However, everyone agrees that the Department of Health and Children completely underestimated the position. I make this point because I do not believe that there are only 20,000 people over 70 years of age who will not quality for medical cards. On the basis of the evidence I have seen in this regard, the figure of 20,000 cannot be accurate. In estimating the position in this regard, many people are working on the basis of the value of pensions last year. Almost all those in the private sector who derive their salaries from investments will have taken a huge hit in that regard and their incomes will be well below the threshold for the foreseeable future.

I would like the Government to provide a clear indication of its philosophy in respect of this matter. I would also like it to outline what might be done in the future and what action might be taken to ameliorate what is being done in the legislation before the House. I would like a breakdown in respect of the supposedly only 20,000 people over 70 who are not entitled to medical cards. How many retired teachers, nurses, gardaí, civil servants and private sector employees are involved? If someone can inform me that the total number is under 20,000, I will be absolutely amazed. I have spoken to people involved with the Retired Teachers Association and individuals involved in banking and the Civil Service. The estimates they provided indicate that the number of people who will be affected is well in excess of 20,000.

I have posed a number of questions in respect of the figures and we will return to these on Committee Stage. It seems there are far too many questions in respect of, and far too much hardship attaching to, these measures. I have tried to keep my contribution balanced and to raise issues which are of concern and which might be addressed. I request that the Minister of State reply in respect of the questions I posed in respect of those who are over 80 and the possibility of the Government raising the threshold to €40,000, €45,000 or €50,000. A development in respect of either of these matters would make a major difference. The Government should show sympathy to those who are concerned about this matter and who are of the view that obtaining a medical card would have a major impact on their lives.

Will the Minister of State also reply in respect of my query as to whether it might be possible for people to pay the €650 relating to the cost of the medical card scheme and thereby buy directly into that scheme? We have discovered that if people visit their doctors when they need to do so, they will have less need of further medical support thereafter. We received figures in this regard during the past three to four months but, again, no one has seen fit to query them.

I will return to these matters on Committee Stage. I look forward to the Minister of State's reply to the debate. If I am not present in the Chamber for it, she can rest assured that I will be listening to it on the monitor in my office.