Joe O'Toole (Independent)

I wish to echo the words of Senator Norris. There is an issue of over-legislating here. The phrasing of our amendment is not the most elegant but we are raising a serious issue of substance. The Minister will recall a long debate over the past two years about the decrease in volunteerism at all levels in Ireland, be it political activism or activism in the churches, in voluntary bodies, sports bodies and so forth. In an increasing number of cases, the only way people can protect themselves is by forming companies. Once they form companies they act as directors and immediately come under the radar of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. The Director of Corporate Enforcement is extremely diligent. Everything is simply business. I have the highest respect for the man. He does not have any discretion in terms of how he does his work. The Companies Act is very clear, and uses phrases such as "trading recklessly".

As outlined by Senator Norris, the issue arises when a charity runs into difficulty. I am a director of a charity which recently sought a grant from a Department. The grant was given on the basis of our presentation, which included an absolute commitment of money from another source. It was not a State source, unlike the example given by Senator Norris. The charity had a clear commitment from a company that it would support administration. On that basis the charity approached the Department and assured it that none of the grant would be lost in administration and that all of it would go to the precise objectives of the charity. That was very attractive to the Minister dealing with the matter.

Unfortunately, one of the companies that had committed its support went bust. This had a knock-on effect. The amount of money coming from the State was dependent on the initial amount coming from the private sector. In the meantime, in the context of a business plan and good governance decisions had been taken and projects put in place, with commitments given and people employed. Everybody acted in good faith, although some might argue otherwise. It could be argued that a prudent person might have waited until the money was in the bank before taking the next steps. That would be bad management but perhaps good governance. Immediately, there is a conflict.

I believe matters will be sorted out eventually in the example I have given, although all sorts of movement will be required. That is not to say it will certainly be resolved. However, if somebody has been employed in good faith or if a project for a building has been signed for in good faith, the knock-on effect is that these do not proceed. As a result people are out of work or commitments and contracts are not adhered to, all for the best reasons. Ultimately, a person in that situation is probably very likely to find themselves convicted of negligence, at least, or reckless trading, at most. Either way, they will have a criminal record.

A criminal record has huge implications, aside from the two mentioned by Senator Norris. It can affect one's credit rating and so forth, which is crucial, particularly at present. One is a disbarred director. The Director of Corporate Enforcement has no choice but to disbar the person for five years. One can appeal that to the courts but at that stage one is up to one's neck in the law.

There is a serious issue involved here. The Bill will be going back to the other House anyway and I urge the Minister to examine this amendment. I heard a reference to the Minister's remarks in the other House but I do not know if that is the case. However, I know that getting insurance cover for criminal negligence is fraught with risk. In some cases one cannot do it. In fact, if one is found to have acted recklessly, which is a criminal offence, there are aspects of insurance that are declared void at that point. It is a complex matter.

I have no wish to drag out the debate on this. Senator Norris has made the case, as have I. There is a real and honest issue before us. I do not like the wording of the amendment. I did not get enough time to draft it. It contains too many sub-clauses and the sentence is too long. I am anxious to hear the Minister's views on this in terms of what can be done.