Jim Walsh (Fianna Fail)

I support the call for a debate on pensions, particularly the funding of many of our pension schemes. It is a most important issue. I disagree with Senator Regan's simplistic approach that in some way the Government should meet the losses accrued in pension funds. One might as easily say this about people who have invested in the stock market. People who have put their life savings into bank shares and others, and who depend on the dividends from those companies, have lost up to 90% of their wealth in the past year. One can argue this, but the State cannot be the rescuer in that situation.

There is a serious issue with defined benefit schemes because where there is underfunding they will breach their statutory requirements. The Minister is correct and I welcome her more flexible approach in view of the current circumstances. I compare that with the public service. We have index-linked pensions and if one has, say, 40 years of service one receives 50% of one's final earnings. There is no funding for that. It is paid for out of current expenditure. It will not be possible to continue that in circumstances where many more pension schemes may move from being defined benefit to defined contribution.

In all the argument that has taken place in the past 24 or 48 hours little mention has been made of the people on defined contribution schemes who are in an equally bad position as those on defined benefit schemes because the pot of money they had accrued for their pensions has been seriously eroded. That is a major issue and one on which I hope we will have a constructive debate.

I concur with those Senators who remarked on the road safety aspects of the "Prime Time Investigates" programme last night. As a former president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, I recall being brought on to a television programme with Pat Kenny more than 20 years ago for a head-to-head debate with the chairman of the Independent Hauliers Association, a body that was illegally hauling at the time. We argued from our side about the lack of enforcement of all the existing legislation, and that argument is continuing to this day. It is all about enforcement.

I recall some time later being in Germany where we spoke to people in the transport industry. I asked about the problems they had with illegal haulage. Even though the person I was speaking to had good English, he obviously did not understand what I was saying and had to get German translation. When he heard the translation he just laughed. The concept of illegal haulage was alien in Germany. They simply did not get away with it because if they were stopped on the roads and they were in breach of the regulations, their vehicle was taken away. That is what we need here. We have too much regulation and too little enforcement. That needs to happen.